How can I say that?. Because the diagram I just shown you states that, regardless of %.

Point being made; Deadlifting doesn’t need to relate too CNS fatigue.

Why would we perform calf raises to strengthen the calves causing an even further muscles-strength imbalance between calf-shin muscles?.

It is often consequence of tight calf muscles permanently stressing the shin muscle that causes shin splints.

The calf is the strongest muscle, it is the only one that can lift your bodyweight 50+ times untrained. I agree plyos is the way to go to train them. I disagree that strengthening the calf will help shin splints as it is primarily the muscle that rotates the tibia that gets fatigued not not the part that lifts the heel.

what is that diagram supposed to show? Sprinting involves the entire body. I know that the calf muscles are used, but I disagree on their importance. I said they weren’t utilized because IMO, there is no real need to train them (separately).

Kind of like biceps. They are on your diagram. But how much of a role do they really play?

I guess i needed to clarify. 3-5 sets of 3-5 reps on dead lift. Does this cause enough CNS fatigue to require 14 days rest? Seems excessive to me. 1x week sounds about right imo.-- but that would coexist with 2x week squats

Sprinting involves the entire body like you say. So basically everything is important.

I just downloaded the torrent for Andy Boltons DVD. I’m gonna stick to his template for getting stronger, especially in the deadlift.

Granted, he ain’t no sprinter, but in terms for developing strength in the hips, back & legs, not many can argue with his approach (guided by some of the top S&C coaches in the world).

My evaluation on the deadlift:

Someone on here made the statement: power output at the hip is 7 times greater at the hip than at the ankle. So lets assume that the power output at the knee is 3.5 times greater than the ankle.

A parallel squat would work the hips and knee joint equally. Thus recruiting and developing equal strength ratios of the quadriceps, hamstrings and hips, (BFS). This would lead me to believe that if parallel squatting was the only lift used, the hip and knee power output would both be 3.5 times that of the ankle. This has been observed in my own personal training as well as others.

In a deadlift, the hips are greater depended on compared to the knee joint. This is shown by the angle of the leg (about at 150 degrees, if 180 degrees was standing straight up). So, if one were to do only deadlifts, the knees would be at greater risk of non contact injuries in sprinting or other sports. This can be explained by the depth of the hips when deadlifting.

Therefore, deadlifting: the greater the risk, the greater the reward. Heavier weight = better reward. Squatting, less risk, less reward. If i was developing the hips at a perfect ratio to the knee, i could develop strength perfectly and healthy.

Leading me to believe that neither squatting or deadlifting can be considered more beneficial, but each have their place in a workout.

Please ask questions if this doesn’t make sense. It makes a LOT of sense in my head, but its hard to put down in type :slight_smile:

So, have we come to a decision to which variation of the DL is best for sprinting? or not?.

Look at this one - wide sumo stance Stiff-Legged Deadlift.

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Feelin’ it?. I don’t think Number Two is. :smiley:

Why do you say you would never adapt training once every 2 weeks on deadlifts? I know lots of really good powerlifters who only do them every 14 days as it pushes CNS pretty hard not to mention higher than average injury potential? Just curious.

IMHO, deadlifts are not a panacea for sprinters. If you use enough weight to actually have any impact on hip strength, they become to stressful overall and something will suffer, either in the gym, on the track, or both. Most powerlifters don’t deadlift twice per week, many don’t dead more than once every 14 days, and out a ways from comp they may drop it altogether to give the body a chance to recover or to make improvements in the squat.

If you have to deadlift, do rack deadlifts, or RDLs. I don’t count SLDL as it is a much different lift. I like box squats, RDLs, SLDLs and good mornings better than deads for a sprinter. Just my personal opinion.

Right, but powerlifters don’t make good runners/athletes, in the purest form.

From your own personal experience, what gains did you make in the lift from day 1 to when you went back to the barbell at day 14?.

Obviously you throw in other lifts/exercises through the week, which some can be just as CNS draining depending on experience, load, efficiency built up in the movement etc.

Once you become efficient in a movement doesn’t the CNS only take 1-2 days rest (good sleep to recover anyway)?.

Interestingly, the most draining exercise I do is the L-sit & that is an extreme core bodyweight only exercise, not performing 1RM deadlifts.

If Ben Johnson aimed for a 600lb squat (brilliant for a sprinter) that is gonna burden the CNS massively over years of training, squat workout in, squat workout out?. How many times was Ben working the squat rack per 14 days?. Once, twice, three times?.

But I need to build-up to a 600lb squat or deadlift (squats do very little for glute development BTW), isn’t my CNS going to suffer aiming for this poundage?. And does it only take 2 days to fully recover, particularly for a experienced lifter that has built up good efficiency?.

SLDLs definitely for hams/hip extension function.

What about snatch grip deads for overall hip development?. Do you know any cons to that lift?.

whenever i squat the only muscles i have seen significant growth in and are sore the next day are my glutes…

I’m not sure why you need to do a 600lb. squat, because been did? And wide box squats will definitely hit your glutes harder than deadlifts. If you want a big squat, then squat big.

SLDLs definitely for hams/hip extension function.

What about snatch grip deads for overall hip development?. Do you know any cons to that lift?.
Any full dead from the floor is going to be harder on you than box squats, and probably less effective for what you trying to accomplish. Stick to various squats, rack deadlifts, RDLs, SLDLs, goodmornings, and if you feel you’re still not hitting your glutes, pick one of Brett’s exercises and knock yourself out.

Come to think of it, I can’t think of a single sub-10 guy now that does DL.

They used to have a couple of good sprinters at Arkansas. One guy, J-Mee Samuels wrote on Trackshark that he was doing something like 360 bench and 450 squats in high school. The other guy, Tyson Gay, as a professional was doing 225 ATG squats, according to PJ.

You have to be strong enough, but only strong enough. I know which of those two guys I’d rather be.

if your glutes are sore, they’re probably comparably weak.

if they aren’t, then they probably aren’t.

(Assuming technique is a constant)

maybe, though i doubt once one gets to squats that hit parallel or below that quads would be the limiting muscle, maybe in quarter squats

i agree. i said the glutes though.

was that when I did it every week, I would get really sore in the lower back. I could do 545lbs for 8 reps, but every time I went up over 600lbs, I would hurt my SI joint. I guess there is something to me and 600+ barrier. I think from experience that I have witnessed massive gains with exposure every 14 days with my athletes. I just find that exposure every week just drained my guys too much. If we deadlifted one week, I would make sure they did a more metabolic workout the following week. I have had a handful of high school kids who deadlifted 500+ and squatted 455+ pretty regularly. I agree with you that RDL is perhaps a better exercise overall. I guess we all just need to find what works for us as individuals.

I suppose you make a valid point.

But isn’t max strength i.e superior strength (over the field) a resounding factor with regards to a great start & acceleration?.

Case in point. The 88’ Seoul race, which looks like it was won in the first 30m?. Was Ben’s overwhelming strength superiority the deciding factor here, over guys like Carl Lewis?.

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Sprinters of today don’t seem to be pulling/pushing these big numbers (Bolt/Gay/Collins etc), but never the less are running fast times.

So what is the overwhelming factor(s) here?., If not max strength, for guys not pushing the big numbers (Bolt/Gay)?. There all putting in the sprint training.

Is it greater core strength they have today?, elasticity?, enhanced surface etc or is just a case of superior genetics (born with fast legs)?.

Bolt/Gay don’t need a 600lb squat to be successful. So what characteristic(s) sets them apart, if not 600lb squat strength?.

Its all the above…depending on which sprinter you’re talking about. There are several factors that influence speed, and power is an important one. But as you approach sub-elite, and especially elite status, absolute strengths contribution to power production becomes secondary…as lkh just mentioned, “you have to be strong enough, but only strong enough”. There is no absolute number, but I can tell you that a sprinter taking his squat from 600 to 800 won’t benefit nearly as much as one taking it from 300 to 500 earlier in his/her career.

I do think absolute strength is important and I think the benchmark test for that is the squat, not the deadlift. I also think it is a very individual thing, meaning, just because you don’t have a big squat doesn’t mean you can’t be fast. But early in your training, especially if you are relatively weak in posterior chain, improving absolute strength is a good idea. At some point, maintaining that strength while focusing on power and other factors become more critical.

But back to the original discussion, full deadlifts are too costly in terms of CNS and overall body stress, IMHO, to be included in sprinters toolkit.

felt that super elastic guys like Carl Lewis benefit more from power training. They already have loads of elasticity, just need more power for start. It almost felt like Carl never improved in that area. It seems as though he always felt he could run Ben down after 70m. Ben got faster as he developed more elasticity. Due to this, he seemed to hold lewis off from closing. His power was mostly a byproduct of the wattage he put out at hip, not just purely from his squat. His squat numbers were greatly influenced by his sprinting.