Recently, I have been reading up on Buchenholz’s methods and while the reading is quite confusing, a lot of it seems to make sense to me and I have heard that people have made substantial gains. Does anyone here have any real experience with his training programs?(KellyB and CCJ?) I was also confused at the overall make-up and structure of the program(perhaps this is due to the fact that I am new to the concept of auto-regulation). Is this a stand alone system or are it’s principles better suited to apply to a different method? Simply put, I am just interested in the system and would like to hear others share their experience with it.
A response from Kelly in one of his Q&A’s
Q: What do you think of training according to the dropoff method? Do you think it’s effective?
For those unaware of dropoff training it’s simply a way to monitor training volume by performance instead of training to get a set volume in. If I were doing squats, for example, I might determine that I want to do sets of 5 reps with the heaviest weight possible. I’d go in the gym and do as many sets of 5 with as much weight as possible. When I could no longer get 5 reps I’d call it a day. Then I’d rest a certain number of days between sessions (pre-established) and come back and do it again.
If I were running sprints I’d establish my distance beforehand. Say I wanted to run 40 yard sprints. I’d go out and run timed 40 yard sprints. As soon as my times declined by a certain predetermined percentage (usually around 3%), I’d call it a day. I’d rest a predetermined amount of days and come back and repeat the workout trying to beat my previous performance.
Now what do I think about training according to dropoffs? Well there are advantages, disadvantages, and misunderstanding. First let’s talk about the advantages. The main advantage of dropoff training is it allows one to focus on improving performance each and every workout instead of just accumulating a certain amount of volume. In this respect training via dropoffs works largely due to the same reason that HIT training initially works for those who use it, or why people notice results when they’ve been training for a long period of time and cut back on volume. The emphasis is on setting PRs each and every workout and recovering fully between workouts.
Since most people do have a tendency to do too much and are rarely fully recovered, they will usually notice quick performance improvements when switching to a lower volume routine where the focus is on making progress each and every workout and recovering fully in between.
Now for the disadvantages. First of all, when training via dropoffs, a training session normally is supposed to be performed in circuit fashion one exercise after another. This isn’t possible for a lot of people and this makes it impossible for a sprinter for example to go out on the track and get some work and come in the weight room and get some work. Some would say that scenario would be ineffective because it would be impossible to determine the amount of fatigue induced by the sprinting session. The same goes for combining conditioning and sport specific work, or energy specific and strength work, or any combination of training.
Secondarily, when using the dropoff method everything has to be done 100% or it makes volume about impossible to monitor. This makes it difficult properly gauge volumes of supplemental work.
Next, since the focus is usually on making progress each and every workout, this requires 100% recovery of the nervous system and requires enough downtime between session that deconditioning of the muscular and cardiovascular systems can often occur. Proponents of dropoff training often tend to be too high-intensity and low volume in their approach and this has limitations. Yes, most people would be better off if they focused on making progress workout to workout yet one should realize a lack of workout to workout results is not always negative. In fact the best results often occur when a fatiguing “period” or “cycle” is followed by a “recovery” period or “cycle”. See this article for more. Planned Overtraining
Now for the misunderstanding. First of all people overcomplicate dropoff training trying to measure and calculate every single variable when it’s something that occurs naturally. Years ago I did a sprint phase where once every 3 or 4 days I’d go out and run 40 yard timed sprints until my times had fallen off by a couple of tenths of a second. I see powerlifters go in the gym and work up to a 1rm max every other workout followed by singles at 90% until bar speed slows down. Either one of those approaches could be considered dropoff training and neither is complicated.
People need to realize that the reason dropoff training works is often not because any of the training methods used, but because the lower volume of total training, full recovery between sessions, and the focus on setting PRS and making progress. However, the ability to make consistent gains workout to workout is limited to weeks or months for most people.
Now personally if one is gonna use dropoff training I prefer to alternate it with more “normal” phases of training.
Therefore, one might go from sprinting and lifting 3 times a week and performing lots of supplemental work to sprinting once every 4 days trying to set PRs each workout. A lifter might go from lifting more often with more overall volume for a 3-5 week period to lifting less often with less overall volume and an emphasis on setting PRs for 3-5 weeks as shown in the above link to the article Planned Overtraining. Just keep in mind nothing has to be complicated and the body doesn’t know the nuances type of training you’re throwing at it. It only knows when it’s being stimulated and when it’s recovering.
It typically works best along as a system, but because it is complex when first learning it, you could start by using some of the larger concepts that appeal to you with what you are currently doing. That would seem like a good approach to “test the waters”.
As far as real world results, one of my athletes (who is a former 200 meter runner, but now doesn’t run anymore) increased their bench press by 30% in only 2 1/2 months. It was actually freaky how quickly and steadily it kept increasing.
Just one example.
First off, I do not agree with everything Kelly has stated (he does make good points about other stuff, but they are not negative to drop offs?). Drop offs do not necessarily lower training volume all the time. Matter of fact, I have had a football player do 46 sets of speed benches before he hit his drop off in terms of how fast he was moving the bar. I actually think when dealing with time it raise the bar! (No pun intended) It teaches you to understand that time is not forgiving on any rep. The guys he was training with at the time lasted 4 sets and 7 sets respectively. Not a bad work out but not 46 sets.
I do however think that it helps control volume when things are not so perfect (so this can be a good thing). Training an Eastern European jumper I have to tell her when to stop training or she will go forever! See, this controls it. I tell her the expectation or the drop off, and then she runs. If she cannot manage it she is done! She can’t fight it! If she pulled her hamstring half way through the practice, believe me she would keep going and not tell me. Matter of fact this happened with her old coach. The workout was sprinting for a certain amount of volume lets say 400 meters of flying thirties. She was hurt early in the runs and still completed them. WHY?? Again, the time doesn’t lie. She would not be able to run as fast. She would be done. I have seen it work! This creates a competitive training environment also. Every body uses times why then can we not make it work for us?
Now, I do say that drop off training is not the only way to train. We use plenty of different methods to attain sports mastery and drop offs are one way we do it. Change is good. The key is to understand your athletes and know what they need, then give it to them when they need it. Drop offs can help start this off for you and they help give you training check ups! If you know your athletes, you know what to set your drop off at. Matter of fact, I also disagree on the amount of time per week you can train. We have different ways in which we establish check points. This is yet another way that drop offs can be used. You are monitoring fatigue (on-going). Some guys like Charlie have great eyes and can do it themselves, others struggle to see it. I think it’s a great tool! I love it for measuring plyometric work and regulating the amount of jumps. Remember fatigue is cumulative, so if you don’t control it right, it bites you later. So, I guess depending where you are standing you like em or you don’t like em. Don’t think that drop offs are so simple. Use your creativity around how to measure fatigue. Guys, this is the secret (recovery) to great training!!
Earlier this year I increased my back squat by 35% in 6 weeks, no fancy programs just hard work. To be convincing, I would want real elite performance results, no accessory exercise numbers!
I tried it. I think it is crap. For example, using DB methods you train horizontaly instead of vertically. If you were to do 3 different exercises in a workout you would train like this…
set 1-exercise 1
set 1-exercise 2
set 1-exercise 3
instead of
set 1-exercise1
set 2-exercise2
set 3-exercise3
This stop and go method does not ever let your body find it’s groove. If you were doing Cleans, Squats, and Curls in one session the reps from the curls would interfere with two larger exercises and the two larger exercises would counter-oppose each other. Generalization vs. Specifity.
These guys have no one to back up their program, they can never be reached, full of smoke and mirrors, etc…
IMO this is some grad. students thesis, hence the outline, the terminology etc. He probably got together with a buisness major, and computer science major and drop this crap. I gave it a good 3 months and saw nothing.
Sorry, but if you don’t know how to choose proper exercise selection then of course it is going to seem like what you described.
Any system/program can only be as effective as it’s user, and you didn’t know how to fly the plane!
I am waiting to here of all of the NFL, NCAA, and olympic athletes thanking DB. Some nice ideas but the secret stuff pisses of a lot of people.
The secret stuff was going a bit far. Let me just say this: If a young , unknown, un-proven coach were to sell any educational product ( in this case a book), would you buy it? Probably not.Rumour has it that a young guy trained with varous coaches and produced a book I guess to recoup his cost for his investment. Kind of like backstabbing but what can you do? We had this discussion a few weeks back at the Guy Voyer seminar: everyone at my table agreed that if anyone wanted to learn what we learn at the seminars they should pay for it, just like we do .I think some people are always looking for a free-bee.
I think DB Hammers book had some stuff in there that can be of use to some. I think alot of people have commented on this book that have not read it. Do I think it is a must have book? NO! Do I agree with everything said in the book? NO! But I have seen much worse books put out by very respectable coaches at a higher cost.
I think DB Hammers book can create a lot of thoughts and ideas for upcoming coaches. I contained alot of theories not found in other books.
I personally dont care who wrote the book. I can learn something from anybody, and I try to. Keep an open mind. Absorb, learn and apply.
unknowns are not just lack of marketing…if the results are there then you will see word of mouth. I will learn from anyone but when someone starts with dishonesty why should I follow them?
Not everyone wants to be known. I know many guys that know alot about training but are in different fields. Not just because of the money either, there’s alot of factors.
I think Charlie mentioned to me on many occasions that theres a fine line between consulting and coaching. Just because I gave someone a piece of advice and they win a big championship or something doesnt mean I coached them.
last week a very popular coach was in town and said that unless you coach someone to a championship your a no body. I flat out told him he’s wrong, and that I dont care to coach someone to a big win.
Getting back to the DB hammer thing: I have spent time with alot of coaches, and can honestly say that I have caught most of them in a lie.Their was a rumor that a coach said he trained Ben in Australia, when in fact the coach who is spreading the rumor told me to my face that he designed some of Bens programs, and the coach in question has never said he had any involvement with Ben.
Which comes back to people always wanting to attach themselves to great coaches to elevate themselves abit. I cant tell you how many times I hear an up and coming coach telling me their assoaciated with so and so. BIG DEAL!
The main thing I try to do when talking to experienced coaches is to learn by their mistakes. This will save us time on our way to the top.
Why do we care so much about who and why? Auto regulation is nothing new? Drop offs have been around for a few years if you think about it. Don’t ever follow blindly Clemson you know better than that. As for it not working, I am sorry that you probably implemented it wrong. Every system stalls, why do Westside guys call me and ask for lifting help if they have the end all be all program? Whys does Bondrachuk rotate exercises? Don’t hate because the name is mysterious. If you used Charlie’s program without success would it mean that it’s crap? Or, does it mean that you read it wrong or just implemented it wrong. Or, your athlete needed his own set of exercises and volume specific to them. After all, you can’t see through Charlie’s eyes can you? People claim that Jay Schroeder’s stuff is horrible?? I say, no it works for him! You can’t see through his eyes either. It’s a program that he has developed that works for him. He has tweaked it by what he has seen ands what he believes works. Then, people in our country get mad because he won’t share it, or the part he shares doesn’t work for them. Experiment find out test it, retest it then come back to see if it’s something you can buy into. If not pass it by, but don’t drink from a cup that is all ready half full with another system?? Get it? Charles Poliquin uses drop offs?? Matter of fact I read somewhere that a few WESTISDE guys are trying it. Believe me If Louie Simmons stops researching to find other ways to get stronger; he will admit its time to get out the business. Don’t hate something because it’s not a good source. Try it out and see for your self. In order to fine tune your own system you have to learn from mistakes and mold what you believe in, If that includes auto regulation then so be it.
Like Kaczmarski says this is poor excercise selection if you are gonna circuit them. The whole reason for circuiting the excercises it to give each excercise equal emphasis, you can take or leave this rule as you please. IMO in a lot of cases one would be better not to circuit; i.e. in the case of a sprinter, sprints priority far outweighs bics quats yet alone bicep curls and so there is no harm in doing the sprints exclusively at the start of the session. So for a 6% drop off session you may do sprints to 2% drop off and then start weights 2% fatiqued already but this is clearly not a problem, just use 4% in the weights room; 2% on cleans, 2% on squats for example.
You also have to consider that the gains claimed by the inno-sport posse (DB was probably an advertising pseudonym) you have to use excercise selection as they prescribe; singal modalities in any one session, such as concentric max strength only, PIM speed strength only. I have personally done this for 12 weeks; 3 four week blocks where i used week 4 to test progress on control excercises, 30m sprint, squat and benchpress. In brief what i found was:
Session-to-session the excercises done to a 6% drop of increased by 4-5% each session for the full time.
However the control excercises improved at 1-2% per 4wk block.
As you can see the “real life” improvements where no better than any other programme in the same time frame. Whilst the excercises will probably improve close to 5% week-on-week this is only the case on “simple” excercises by which i mean a concentric only contration at maximum force is only a very small part of the elements that make up an athlete when all is said and done the real life improvements are no better than any other programme.
On a side note, the lack of tempo and general conditioning sessions the simple format requires, is a major weakness! I probably don’t need to tell you i got injured in competition off the back end of the programme.
And yes, before anyone says it, i am aware that i would have been better to have done a competition prep between DB’s programme and the competition period. Live and learn!
Alan.
Thanks! Thats exactly what I wanted to say but this home made wine is really taking me for a ride.
But seriously. It is best to keep an open mind to new training strategies. I think it was Dave Tate who said the same training methods to get a 300 LBS bench presser to a 500LBS bench will not work to get you a 700LBS bench, or something like that. So it is best to have alot of tricks up your sleevers rather than a few.
In that case I encourge you to learn all that you can from the system. Do it to the T, implement every exercise and template. I’ll just keep outlifting you and winning races.
See you at the bottom from the top.
Close the door to everything, you’ll be sure to miss something. You must be a young guy who has all the answers. It’s funny; when I get like you (someday) I will stop coaching athletes. I want to continue to learn and give the best to my athletes. Have fun at the top. But when you fall it will hurt because you only have one thing to fall back on, and nothing to support you in your climb back up. Sometimes listening or trying some thing new isn’t all that bad. Look at all the great coaches, and you will see lots of other peoples programs or influences in their work. Someone had to have influenced you?? Or no?
Although you are free to have your own opinions, I really have to question whether this is really how you feel. Do you really think there is only one way to the top? Would you be willing to share that one way, or template how you put it earlier, with us?
I think im really confused on how people believe their is only one way to the top?
This has to be a joke!
Why does every DB hammer evangelist:
-attack Clemson when he asks for proof?
-When presented with bad results while using DB’s system claim it was implimented wrong?
- Resort to claiming that everyone is close-minded (although Clemson is often the target) but them?
I think this is the tenth time this has happened on this site, to the T. Does DB’s marketing division require astroturfing on forums?
Seriously, DB is nothing more than marketing. All of his major concepts were written down long ago, (Coach X discusses this in a Q&A on EFS). Drop-offs were even found in a Weider mag!
It seems like i could write a perl script to make these discussions considering their repetitiveness…
Marketing huh? Ya, we all make tons of money off you guys. Your email probably gets blown up every day of stuff he tries to sell you huh? I am sorry you are right; we sell everything from bands to wrist straps (like others we know of). What kind of marketing are you talking about? I am not attacking just Clemson. Matter of fact Clemson and my self have talked before off line a few times about different research. Has one person who utilizes DB’s stuff tried to sell you anything? I talk about Charlie’s program, I talk about drop offs not being new, we talk about all kinds of training methodology. What exactly are you talking about?? You must be kidding with all the crap I get in my email about training and this supplement and that, you think its marketing. Please make intelligent well thought out posts before you say things like that. Coach X seems interested in some of DB’s stuff believe me. Is this bad??? No he wants to understand other training ways. It’s great I think. Is he going to sell the farm……nope, just wants to learn. About the failing of a certain program. Does this not happen with lots of different training programs? If you have the perfect one please post it you can save me a lot of freaking time researching. Matter of fact, why don’t we shut this forum down because you have all the answers??
Show me some results…
It all looks good on paper. And we can all argue all day long, but show me a “Freakshow Athlete” on their website doing anything world class. Or why not get a professional athlete…
if, and, and but…
You’ll find in elite athletics, its not some new technique or method that gets results. It’s about taking the same old stuff and pushing the envelope.
Bottomline if it works or does’nt you will know soon enough. Good Luck!
Siempre hay esperanza.