http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do;jsessionid=BE74387E48767CAF5071CB4352B13889.titan?id=551687
pretty good article but nothing that anyone on this forum shouldn’t already know.
I knew about massage and epsom salts but not exactly what they did or why they did the things they did! Best Article I’ve seen in a long time, YOU HAVE TO CHECK IT OUT!
What the heck kind ingredients does a drink that “can actually increase CNS recovery!” have in it?! Thibaudeau goes into detail on the protein/carbo drink he recomends for post workout muscular recovery, but pretty much just says “Drink Power Drive it helps your CNS to recover, Why? because I said so, that’s why.”
The reason I ask is because it is not incredibly difficult to create my own post-workout protein/carbo smoothie, but if I don’t know what the heck a CNS drink would have in it, how could I replicate it? And more importantly why would I use it if its effects were purely mystical?
My motto: “If I can’t make it in my own kitchen, IT’S CRAP!.. And if I did make it in my own kitchen, well it’s probably crap too.”
I agree… Good article!
Chris did write a nice article, but he is writing to a set of readers that is into physique enhancement with different training programs…but any athletic trainer will know heat is not a good thing after a training session with inflammation like sprinting. Inflammation spreads like wild fire if you hop into a tub of hot water with epsom salt if you have tissue trauma. The last thing I want an athlete to do after heavy sprints. The intensity of squats might be high, but the eccentric loading is different for athletes when sprinting on a track. After strenth training heat might not be bad if you are doing bodybuilding work, and I have seen some great results with using saunas after classic routines of 3 x 8-12 and even down to 3 x 5 reps.
Now what about a lighter session with warm water? I don’t know…but increased blood flow and relaxing agents does work and I am very pleased Christ T put that in the article. Having the myofibrils relax and extend as soon as possible is important to have it remodel without abnormal issues.
I like ice baths after sprints to prevent swelling…within the two hours of training. Warm baths can be used day two with contrast showers…
So you’re suggesting NOT to have contrast showers post sprint training? 
Palmy, CT has been a big fan of Power Drive for ages but that is the first time I have seen him suggest it post workout.
Re your motto, I haven’t heard anyone else suggest Surge is crap, over priced yes, but not crap 
John C-S,
I am not saying that contrast showers can’t work with post CNS windows of a few hours but I do know that real cryotherapy must be done within a few hours for it to prevent edema/swelling. The edema is a natural response and you can prevent it with cold plunges suggested by Ken Knight. Contrast showers are:
(1) Superficial
(2) help with CNS fatigue, and increase nervous system relaxing to prevent interference. see beta response info in my article “a chance of contrast showers”.
I don’t think that blood flow will increase intramuscularly but it will get your skin to respond! Charlie said it work and I believed him (not at first) eventually to see WHY it worked so I can try to evolve the sport science a bit. People are not following his during workout infomation from the forum review and missing out on huge results…
Again, from my experiences and toying with the research I have read this makes sense to me. Chris is a research reading machine as well and he knows his stuff…
We are all getting into great details here, but I would love to here who has their athletes consistantly doing it? Charlie is a bright guy and has great programs…but the athletes bought into the value of recovery from an early age.
Remember we are getting into details that he might not have covered in the article.
what pages are you referring to?
Charlie has gone into great lengths about the use of BCAAs during training. I have used this for a few athletes for 6 months and the results are fantastic. Of course the formula was customized…
i’ve been using ICE during workouts with good results…contrast showers have helped as well.
i’ve been toying with a pre-workout mix, still testing it out.
Clemson I do believe that contrast showers are o.k. if an athlete doesn’t feel sore after his sprint session; however, right now after sprints my achilles flare up and so therefore, contrast showers are not a good idea for me and cold shower would be better with a contrast shower after wts. That being said I do believe you can still do a contrast shower in my state; here’s how it works, first start off with cold water and make sure that by the time 1min is up the last place you hit is the calves/achilles (this may prolong the cold water time to 1min 30sec) then do hot water for 3 min but avoid hitting the calve/achilles area and repeat the cycle. This will keep your calves from getting warm/hot when using the hot water!
Another method is to constantly have one shower on cold and another shower used for contrast showers. Have both of them run at the same time and in the middle of your hot water contrast shower you put your calves/achilles in cold water for 30 sec so it would look something like this.
1 min cold in shower 1
1 min 30 sec hot in shower 2 avoid calves
30 sec cold in shower 1 for calve/achilles only!
1 min 30 sec hot in shower 2 avoid calves
1 min cold in shower 1
alternatively if you can have both showers on you at the same time then you can always have shower 1 on your calve/achilles for the whole shower while you do a normal contrast shower in shower 2. Your probably saying how the hell is this guy moving the shower heads? Answer: I am not they are just set up that way, where I workout! 
Any thoughts?
Venom,
Dunk for inflammation, contrast for relaxation and muscle extension.
Clemson,
so in an ideal situation you suggest
- some sort of cryotherapy immediately post workout for muscular recovery
followed by
2) contrast shower mainly for CNS recovery either post workout or a few hours later?
Chris is a research reading machine as well and he knows his stuff…
true dat.
Slightly OT but where do you (as in anybody) draw the line between ideal and reality? IMHO there are certain fundamentals that everyone training should follow but then they need to weigh up the extra touches against reality. In my case I will never be that good, heck I’m average at best, so yes BCAA’s may well improve my performance but is the cost / benefit ratio worth it, I say no. I guess what I’m saying in a long winded way is IMO certain things are left to those with real talent wand will use that to win not finish mid field regardless of what they do.
Comments?
“To be the best that you can be is the only end in life”
I know it is just for discussion purposes, but is this not a very self-defeating (ultimately slef-fulfilling) attitude?
I would agree that certain supplements are best left till all other elements are in place, but surely the emphasis should be on the absolute performance of the athlete and not relative performance, vis-a-vis the performance of someone else?
cryotherapy after speed/weights.
contrast showers after tempo and/or a few hours after speed/weights.
John, your reality is as you perceive it to be.
Your self proclaimed mediocrity may very well be a lack of programming specificity.
My suggestion:
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Identify an accute training goal
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Exhaust every mean and method of training, within the parameters of your definition of reason, in order to satisfy the requirements of achieving the goal
This is all that anyone can hope for
Utilizing the performances of the elite as a bench mark is a reasonable means of inspiration. In contrast, utilizing the performances of the elite as a vehicle for validating your current inability to compete at the elite level does nothing to liberate your situation.
Identify exactly what it is that is retarding the development which you seek and then determine what steps you are prepared to take in order to achieve resolution.
GF200 & James, thanks for your comments but you seem to have misinterpreted my post. It wasn’t a whoa is me or even meant as a negative thing at all, I only used myself as an example and although I don’t need to justify myself will
At age 42, with work, a fantastic wife & 2 kids any athletic endeavours I undertake, although important, will always rate 3rd. By now I also have a pretty fair appreciation of my physical capabilities and as much as I would like to be a champion, I wont be 
and it isn’t through lack of application.
James you raise some valid points yet are probably unaware that I am working towards a specific goal and believe I am progressing well towards it just not as fast as I would like LOL
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Clemson is correct, there is absolutely nothing new in the article to this website or Charlies writings over the past few years.
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In fact he has even left alot of other stuff out
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I also agree with Clemsons point - In some cases and after sufficient lapse in time Hot bathing may be helpful in restoration of tissue tone and length though I would provisonally disagree on the suggestion of “using saunas after … 3 x 5 reps” if the intensity is high
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Proper CNS recovery in my opinion can only be achieved through careful relaxation and restoration MOST IMPORTANT SUPPLEMENT IS SLEEP.
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Good basic nutrition, Supplemental Nutrition and Contrast Showers can assist but only to a limited degree.
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I have used Powerdrive as one of my Post High Intensity workout CNS recovery supplements and have found it quite helpful.
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Powerdrive has been suggested and used Post Workout for some time now … (I think JB was the first to use it PWO)
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Supervenomsuperman your understanding of contrast showers is a little misplaced as is your understanding of the structure and blood flow of the achilles and Calcaneal tendon.
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John C-S your point about reality is valid but bear in mind you should aim for, prepare for (and to) the degree to which you want to reach … then take a step back … and aim one higher … i.e. you are ultimately the single biggets limiting factor to your achievements. This is the same point gf makes. I understand the dfference you mean though - it is important - when I reach the 40’s I might have a different answer!
Intensity and structural damage is not a direct relation N023, and any guy benching 3 x 5 reps will not create intramuscular swelling like someone sprinting…