If you say so Partelesku…
Why don’t we flip the situation around? Why don’t you and others provide ‘Galileian’ proof why Verkhos books and methods are so great? You said the book is great, I said its crap and you ask me for proof? Where is your proof for your statement in the first place? Yeah, sorry… he is from Eastern Europe, and they must know something, duh! He invented plyos too… wow.
Please keep on topic…
If someone in the field doesn’t like JV ideas, I do not see why we should crucify him,.
Science do not always has the answers on strenght and conditioning, and some JV datas (e.g., the ones on depth jumps sets reps heights) are not so matched by empirical datas of other coaches.
I respect greatly JV works, but simply is not an universal answer…see endurance training…maybe those blocks can be good in canoeing or rowing, but they are not used in track (middel distance).
Same for sprints and others…
I always feel the role of the scientist is more to provide a background for coaches than actual program design.
So, discuss every aspect that you do not like, but no personal assaults I hope.
The problem is not with somebody who critics Verkhoshansky, thanks god , there are enough intelligent persons doing that. And not only Verkhsohansky, also Bompa and so on.
The problem arise when somebody who know virtually nothing about about a subject starts to emit judgments. Which is the case here.
This guy cant even read Verkhoshansky’s work- by his own admission , he didnt read the book he called ‘crap’ (nota bene, he didnt read, let alone understand )- but he comments on it.
Unfortunately, this is one of the greatest displays of ignorance I seen in the last years. By all means, criticize Verkhoshansky , but make sure you at least understood his work.
Duxx, what books did you read ?
In the scientific method results have value only under the assumptions made.
In periodization, JV has data on the higher results of block system regard to parallel-complet-system, this only for advanced athletes.
Still remaining under the assumptions made, his other experiments are the best succession means so that the effect is not only additive, but exponential.
That is why I said if you had data that compare other programming with the block system.
In this theme there is an interesting article on Elitefitness that compares the block system with other programming and it indicates the block system as better, and is not written by JV…
It 'interesting to note that coaches who have not taken inspiration from JV, converge for yourself towards the same conclusions …
With regard to endurance running…
Luciano Gigliotti is the coach of two gold Olympic medals in marathon: Gelindo Bordin and Stefano Baldini.
His system develops in three blocks of 2 months each with a single functional orientation:
1° block: Strength.
2° block: Aerobic power.
3° block: Specific aerobic resistance.
Giorgio Rondelli is a coach of Olympic and world champions as Alberto Cova and Francesco Panetta. (10.000 mt and 3.000 mt)
His annual cycle provides a triple periodization in three blocks…
It would also be interesting to know the periodization of russian olympic gold on 800 mt
Borzakovskiy.
What is interesting to note that in high levels to solve the same problem they converges toward the same solution …
Someone once said if you had two rooms with the students of certain teachers in one and the teachers in the other discussing theories, the students would fight and argue the teachers would agree …
ALL the coaches use different phases, or blocks, in the training process…but that doesn’t mean a usage of this very model…
I was referring to the the system for middle distance employing weights and jumps [ (10x10) x10 and so on, you can find it also in Atletica studi in italian].
Let’s keep on topic and discuss on it.
We can open others to discuss of other applications (sprint training mainly)
Because this “electronic agora’” is not an anonymous forum, it is owned by Mr. Charlie Francis, I expected that, also respecting the freedom of expressions in the forum, the level of discussion should be appropriated to the context and should reflect the style of the owner.
I am posting not to confute erratic arguments but to preserve the image of my father from free words used in a way that I am sure will be not accepted by Mr. Charly Francis. The personal offence (also if indirect) should not take place in a public forum.
Because I respect the objective of serious discussion promoted in this forum by Mr. Charly Francis, I do hope that the discussion will be driven on the base of a founded knowledge of Sport Training Science and the criticisms indexed to the idea and not to the person who formulated the idea.
Because I do believe that without discussions the science does not progress I decide to present in this forum the following abstract of the book (because it was not possible attach the file to the message I used the following link: http://www.verkhoshansky.com/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=91KBLQfBhdQ%3D&tabid=80&mid=502, the intension is not to promote the book but to bring the level of discussion to that appropriate to the site.
Natalia Verkhoshansky
We are lucky to have you here to enlighten us all, misguided and blind and with lack of reading skills. Poor baby, you’re so bright… do you actually coach someone?
True… There are some common sense concepts in Block Training, and there are some crap. Use what you find usefull. I’m just sick of Verkhoshansky trolls who pimp each other on the public forums, and present themselfs as intelligent and the only source of knowledge, like we are all other stupid or something, and find themself called out whenever someone have a critique.
As I said, Jack Daniels used some ideas of BP in his system, which is along the lines you already said. Coe’s father used (correct me if I’m wrong here) modified mixed-parallel method of training called multi-tier training to achieve great results .
I would love to discuss commonalities and differences between Daniels, JV and Coe’s system of training endurance athletes.
Don’t flatter yourself. Its not “WE” involved. Its only ‘YOU’. Other esteemed members of this board do not poses your ignorance. Do not try to make it a case of “we”. You are quite unique in this position.
Dont bother responding, I added you to the ignore list. You dont worth the time.
I would like to query the use of the Local muscular endurance exercises within the program used in Block A.
Perfoming sets of 10reps as fast as possible causing minimal build up of lactate and ensuring power output doesn’t drop off hardly develops local muscular endurance. Seems a more of a strength and speed workout? How will this training increase the oxidative capacity of the slow twithc muscles?
And a squat is specific to running as??
Why would you use 2 very conflicting elements in block A aerobic and strength type training?
I am sure some members here familiar with Y. Verkhoshansky’s work may be able to provide their views, but for such a specific question why not asking the man himself over at his website?
This is my personal interpretation. You can ask directly at prof. Verkhoshansky’s WEB site for his personal view:
The training in block A is general in nature. Its role is mainly to boot the adaptive processes
As presented, the LME exercise in block A will have the following effects:
- increase the basic contractile capacity in slow twitch fibers
- increase local vasuclarization
- boot adaptive processes which increase the
mitochondrial enzymatic activity - increase general recovery capacity
- also helps in preventing injuries
You can find extensive descriptions of methodologies for increasing LME in literature.
How will this training increase the oxidative capacity of the slow twithc muscles?
mainly, by boot adaptive processes which increase the mitochondrial enzymatic activity.
it also receives a contribution form the aerobic loads.
Also, study the contents of block B.
In block training system, you can’t just concluded that each and every exercise is finalized to improve special endurance or special abilities. Block A is almost always general in nature.
As for your second question:
Aerobic loads are not incompatible with strength endurance loads.
IIRC Issurin has a extensive discussion on strength -aerobic blocks in his latest book, responding to the WHY …
Hope this helps you a bit. Remember, for more you can always ask Verkhoshansky at his WEB site.
1) I would like to query the use of the Local muscular endurance exercises within the program used in Block A.
The answers to these questions are in the book. In any case because these topics have been previously discussed in this forum I wish to give some clarifications also for who didn’t read the book.
2) Perfoming sets of 10reps as fast as possible causing minimal build up of lactate and ensuring power output doesn’t drop off hardly develops local muscular endurance.
Seems a more of a strength and speed workout?
And a squat is specific to running as??
First of all, the classification of the training effects of different training means (training loads) on the base of general motor abilities (as for instance: strength of speed work) is an approach that brings to a very narrow view of exercise’s aim.
Second, the training means proposed in the book to develop local muscular endurance are not squats but:
- Barbell Half Squat Jumps,
- Scissor-lunge Jumps, consist of vertical jumps initiated from a position with one’s legs split wide apart in the sagittal plane (with or without changing the lunge position during the flight phase),
- Vertical Jumps from a semi-squat position holding a Russian Kettlebell,
- resistance exercises for the hip flexor muscles, carried out on special strength equipment (hip joint flexion).
Each repetition of exercise must be executed not as fast as possible, but with maximal power output in each repetition (in the 10 sec sets) or with sub-maximal power effort in each repetition (in the 30sec sets). The frequency of repetitions is one jump per second (or one thigh movement per second).
So, the motor task is to jump as high as possible in “short” sets or to maintain the optimal jumps height during long sets. The athlete should also try to relax the muscles during the “flying” phase of exercises execution.
The overload weight must be chosen individually and empirically so that the athlete will be able to carry out 10-12 repetitions of overload exercise, with a frequency of one repetition per second, free of clear symptoms of fatigue and without a decrease in power output.
3) How will this training increase the oxidative capacity of the slow twitch muscles?
The Local Muscular Endurance improvement through the use of resistance exercises in an interval regime is based on the enforcement of the CP mechanism of energy production. At the end of 70th the researches showed that the role of the CP mechanism is not limited by the energy supplying of the short intensive muscular activity, but serves the universal role (as the universal energy transporter) in the energy supplying of every kind of intensive muscular activity (Saks, V. A., Sharov, V. G., Smirnov, V. I. Membr. Biochem. 2:81-86, 1978).
The enforcement of the CP mechanism allows an increase in the intensity level of the prolonged muscular work executed without great blood lactate accumulation because it allows the increase of the intensity of ATP/ADP transformations which are the base mechanism of the oxidative capacity (Verkhoshansky Y., Charieva A. “Sport science bulletin” journal, 1984, n. 3).”