Perhaps Firebird is talking about low level jumping with very quick GCT.
I never said that the calves absorb ALL of the force. What I said was that they absorb most of the force when the legs are straight. As the knees and hips bend, the quads and glutes will be needed to absorb increasing force.
Charlie
When landing in the squat position, I would not recommend a vertical jump following the depth drop. An example of this can be viewed on Jay Schroeder’s “Freak of Training” video. It is simply a depth drop with the landing in a sqaut position.
When would it be sport specific to land on your heel such as your “normal” landing (a flat or dorsi flexed foot will cause a heel strike when standing straight up, we are talking about depth drops and vertical jumps, not sprinting)? Also, the compression forces are bound to cause stress fractures of the tibia over time with heel strikes.
All of those muscles are major contributers to the concentric contraction of a vertical jump. We are discussing amortisation (force absorbtion). True, the concentric phase is almost one half of the stretch shortening cycle, but the other components are amortisation and a brief isometric action.
When landing at 90-90, you will not perform a jump following the depth drop. These type of actions are used to increase the absorbtion capabilities within the muscles rather than increase concentric contractions. I am not talking about landing then dropping to the squat position, I am talking about landing in a squat position.
- True
- True
- True
These are not the only options though. The COG will shift as you move in various directions. when it is greatly displaced, then you lose your balance and land on your heels, ass, or head as you put it. Agility allows the COG to be displaced without losing ones balance.
One last thing. Even if the stretch shortening cycle where the same as the COG became displaced, the muscle recruitment would be vastly different.
LMFAO 
Firebird, you where talking about a particular exercise not jumping in general? I must have jumped in the thread mid-stream.
Thomas
So what your saying is that If I hold the bar while doing bench press for full ext my 1RM in bench press will go up!
Would it not be better to focus on isometrics at your weakest point.
If training for absolute strength is so detrimental then how come Ben Johnson became the worlds fastest man? :rolleyes:
So wait in CF’s material in stage 3 he has an athlete jumping off a box and then doing a vertical jump over hurdles! Also when an athlete does this drill why would he want to be at 90 degrees instead of doing a quarter squat (or something close to that give or take)! Would this not be better because it is the quick response frequency you want and this occurs earlier on the force-time curve! Remember these plyo’s are done for the top speed and end of the 100m races.
Yeah, I am talking about one particular exercise.
What I was explaining was that DB focuses so much time on plantar flexion, opposed to the posterior chain, because much of his methods are focused on the absorbtion of force. This is where the discusion about calf activity came about. You have solid points, but for different aspects of the routine.
Landing in the squat position could be likened to CF’s use of jumping up early in the Acceleration training phase. You land in a deeper joint angle, it carries over to acceleration more. You could use this type of depth drop during the phase 1 not during phase 3
Charlie (correct me if I’m wrong) uses up jumps early for acceleration (stage 1) due to deeper joint angles then over time periodizes into down jumps and multiple response jumps as the training emphasis changes to top speed work.
Plus Firebird is not saying only land in a 90-90 configuration. The Drops obviously represent ONE exercise which the coach would use when appropriate.
Regards to the bench press I’m sure he meant to train the iso at the weak point, not at lockout.
Holding an isometric benchpress at maximal or avove maximal loads will result in gains (although minimal) throughout the ROM. As the isometric angle reaches full flexion, the strength gains become more focused accordingly. (this is described in Supertraining)
This would be great to correct a sticking point. An isometric at full extension would be more usefull to increase starting strength.
Absolute strength is not detrimental to speed- strength when incorporated in the correct order and time within the macrocycle.
As 101pro said, my example is a single exercise that can be used to increase the absorbtion capabilities of the muscles and not the myotatic reflex. When eliciting the SSC, the 1/4 squat is more practicle for obvious reasons which you have stated. The exercise that I was describing is not plyometric. As I was trying to explain earlier, as the hip and knee angles decrease, the quads and glutes are recruited to a greater degree for absorbtion.
I really didn’t mean to confuse everybody.
I’m glad I didn’t confuse everyone.
Actually, I did mean to say isometrics at full extension of the agonist muscle (opposite point from the lockout).
I can go into this further if anyone would like (probably won’t be until Monday though, gotta support my wrestlers at the state tournament this weekend, leaving tonight).
I see. I’m not a great believer in big drop jumps, especially after the horrendous demise of John Brenner, the world’s best shot-putter in 1987, so most of the deeper positions I use are going up, which, I think fits with a 3 phase short-to-long approach and the fact that deeper angles are used in the early acceleration phase of the 100m. (the graphs for this are in the Forum Review)
There is also a point of diminshing returns at higher heights where the SSC starts to dissipate its Kinetic energy into heat instead of the rebound velocity! Hence you just get the stretch but no shortening!
Charlie,
I find it interesting that you progress from concentrics first to then landings in your general prep phase (if I’m understanding what you are saying correctly). In my own personal experience and through research I’ve gone to developing isometrics first, then eccentric strength and then finally concentric. Granted I’ve done this mostly with weight training, however it seems to me to be a good progress for plyometric work as well with regards to a general prep phase (isometric phase not withstanding). Could you please elaberate on how you found it most benefitial to progress your way.
Supervenomsuperman,
That’s called “not being prepared for a height that high”. Also regarding the point of diminishing returns, this is made obvious when the athlete starts to shift too much to the side of mobility on the “stability v mobility” continuum. At that point “depth drops” can actually hinder performance and exercises that focus on stability will now continue to enhance the athletes performance. So it really has nothing to do with the exercise as being good or bad, it all has to do with how the athletes system is interpreting it. It’s more of a programming issue, a good coach will just manipulate this correctly to keep the gains coming and to prevent using “the wrong exercise at the wrong time”, which often gets turned into “that exercise is bad for you”.
Charlie, what about lower box height drop jumps, strictly working on reactivity(for instance no higher than 32 for a very strong and advanced athlete)?
Not sure I understand your first sentence as the plyos progress by phases not all during one GPP.
I’ve always thought of it from an end-use perspective. Over a three phase program S to L program several issues arise:
1: The time away from various elements is shorter, so progressions are briefer and losses from previous plyo abilities/exposures are less.
2: The relative number of plyo contacts is lower in my program than in some, particularly European programs.
3: The contribution of a strong presence of Power Speed drills (ranging from Askips to bounds) to plyo ability is significant.
Thoughts?
In the general prep phase I spend more time trying to condition the body to: increase capacity levels, fix/assure firing sequences/patterns, develop absorption qualities along with total body activation of tension. That is, on a strength-endurance day, dynamic warm-up may be followed by an activation exercises (when necessary), then into isometric training and then finish with strongman training. I use isometrics as the foundation for strength. On speed-endurance days dynamic warm-up is followed again by activation of necessary areas, then on to calastenic series, smaller in-the-box conditioning, and finally some slightly larger conditioning. Now, this obviously changes depending on the sport and the athlete, but as a beginning general prep phase it does wonders for preparing them for the next stages.
How long is your GPP and how many phases per year?