Are cleans the exercise to do??

The Forums Strength
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Ok, first replie in a zillion year!

  1. No exercise is NECESSARY

  2. Exercise selection is the LEAST IMPORTANT training parameter

  3. An exercise you select is effective not because of the exercise itself, but rather because of HOW you do it.

Here is a few paragraph from one of my upcoming article:

"In modern strength training it seems that exercise selection has taken the most important place when it comes to program design. Ironically, when it comes to maximum strength development it is probably one of the least important variables to manipulate. Simply look at most elite Olympic weightlifters: very few will do exercises outside of cleans, jerks, snatches (competitive lifts), back squats, front squats and sometimes pulls. And never will you see them working on isolation exercise to correct a so-called structural imbalance.

Now, I’m not that extreme. I do advocate using various exercises to develop the body harmoniously (this can help with strength, proper posture and looks). However I do believe that it’s not which exercise you do that carries the greater benefit in regard to strength, but rather how you do it.

The Olympic lifts are widely regarded as fantastic power builders. And they are, but not because of the actual movement you are doing (there is nothing magical about a power clean), rather because you are moving a relatively heavy load with as much speed as possible. So it’s not the movement per se that brings most of the gains in power output, but rather how you do the exercise (incidentally that’s why I’m not looking at how much weight a trainee is lifting in the Olympic lifts but rather how fast can he lift a certain load).

Take the Westside guys for example: they do not use the Olympic lifts yet they are extremely strong and powerful guys. Why? In part because an important portion of their training is spent on moving a load with as much speed and acceleration as possible. They may not do the Olympic lifts, but they still get the same benefits by doing explosive squats, bench presses and deadlifts.

As you can see, the secret is not so much what exercises you use, but how you use them (Yeah I know, I’m repeating myself. But this could very well be the most important thing you’ll ever learn in regard to strength development).

Sadly we often ignore that fact, and instead of looking for effective ways of doing an exercise we are looking for a magical exercise (such thing doesn’t exist). And the saddest part is that these methods are here, they are well-known by a few coaches. Hey, a few trainees (you may be one of them) even tried some of them but dismissed them before giving them a fair chance. "

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Welcome back Chris T…or is it Vin Diesel? :smiley:

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Don’t start … I get that Vin Diesel comment 1000 times per day … it’s getting anoying :slight_smile: Not to mention that my GF looks like Meg Ryan with muscles so she gets the same thing!

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…and you came here to get away from it! Sorry, mate!

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Not a problem … I’d rather by confused with Vin than with the Pillsbury Dough Boy (which used to happen to me a lot!).

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meg ryan with muscles! nice!

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Chris - what about releasing loads?

That’s the problem with squats and benches etc, you still have to brake the load, even bands don’t really negate this effect.

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re:release of loads ie power tosses and other power moves

when my sprinters run they release their load each step…If I had the look of their bodies I would release my $#$%# tonight instead of writing this god damn manual.

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Clemson - I don’t know wether to laugh or cry :slight_smile:

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Chris T writes…

  1. No exercise is NECESSARY

  2. Exercise selection is the LEAST IMPORTANT training parameter

  3. An exercise you select is effective not because of the exercise itself, but rather because of HOW you do it.

What about when and why? Exercise selection may be the the most important parameter based on motor skills, injury history, and training environment. With all the magical"loading schemes" this doesn’t seem to be the problem. In fact I prescribe various exercises such hurdle mobility work to correct performance on the playing field with great results. Would HOW=Intensity?

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I tend to agree to a degree with this statement. But in the ideal world aren’t there exercises we would like our athletes to perform. David W for example mentioned Back Squat and Hang Snatch.

In the perfect world what are the critical exercises and if these can’t be performed how do we regress the respective exercises?

For example a Rugby player with a previously injured shoulder may struggle with Hang Snatch; is Hang Clean the next best alternative? If they have injured their wrist where to from there for power development?

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Just to make myself clear, obviously some exercise are better than the others.

However what’s I’m opposing is when a coach tries to get too fancy with some oddball exercise. Obviously you must choose exercises which will have a carryover to the sporting performance. But the intensity loading, volume, density and training methods are more important to plan.

Here’s my latest article:

http://www.testosterone.net/nation_articles/270super.jsp

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Chris - you make me laugh.

‘The other thing that drives me nuts is the constant need to “sell.” You gotta’ be more innovative than the others, sound better, be bigger than life. The thing is, pretty much everything has been done! At least everything that’s really effective. But many coaches — who are trying to look better then they are — always come up with new stuff only for novelty’s sake. Innovation is good, but not at the expense of efficiency.’ CT (not too long ago)

You my friend have become what you once despised. You’re on a downward sprial to Poliquin depths. Do you think The Bulgarian perform 10s supra maximal isometrics? :smiley: :smiley: In reality who could benefit from such a program. Lets face it after all the spiel your athletes do what everyone else does: Squat, Bench and Clean/Snatch.

You’re right it is very simple. You’re also right there are no secrets. No magic (legal) supplement. No forgotten secret exercise. One of my lifters trained with some of the best lifters in the world: Cubans, Russians etc. So he quizzies them. Intensity? Volume? frequency? Periodisation? Supplements ( :smiley: )? Exercises? etc etc. You know what conclusion he came to after all that discussion? Lift, squat and pull. Don’t go too heavy and get on the T…

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Let’s set some facts straight:

  1. Bulgarian lifters do not need many special techniques in part because they are genetically gifted for lifting (this comes from their selection process). When you are physically built to excel in an activity (all the perfect levers, muscle fiber ratios and motor control) only practicing that activity will be enough. Individuals who are not as gifted, or who are not yet of an elite level will benefit from such techniques. An example can be found in the work of Soviet olympic lifting coaches Robert Roman, Nikolai Laputin, Valentin Oleshko and Alexsei Medvedyev who recommend the use of several techniques such as isometrics, functional isometrics, accentuated eccentrics, reactive/shock exercises and such.

  2. Cuban lifters do make use of some of the techniques I mentionned. For example, Pablo Lara (multiple-times world champ) would often lift the bar off the ground, pause it for 2-3 seconds 1-2" bellow the knees and clean it or snatch it.

  3. The great Leonid Taranenko also used this method, but on his back squats. He would pause for 3 seconds below parallel before lifting the bar.

  4. Vassily Alexeyev would often use accentuated eccentrics, sometimes lowering the bar in up to 10 seconds, even when doing snatches and cleans! You can find reference to his use of this method in two different sources: In Alexeyev’s biography by Dimitri Ivanov: " Usually the athletes lift barbells and then immediately drop them. This takes several seconds. According to Alexeyev’s method, the sportsman finds himself under the weight for a period of two or three minutes. The entire organism must sustain this prolonged effort, as the athlete completes several consecutive exercises without letting go of the equipment. The weight of the barbell is relatively light, but the varied work with it affects every muscle cell." and in Alexeyev’s series of article called The experience of my training".

  5. Most of the methods I described have been used by numerous elite athletes and coaches. For example, Jay Schroeder uses much of the same techniques as I do.

  6. I’ll be the first one to say that one should focus on the basic exercises. In fact, you’ll notice that all the exercises I include in my article are basic, money exercises (except for the assistance work) and that there is little, if any variation. However the methods used vary. Lifting weight for lifting weights will only get you so far. Obviously, the more gifted an athlete is the farther “just lifting weights” will get him. However most peoples will grealty benefit from the techniques explained.

  7. I have used these techniques myself and with all of my athletes and all have greatly increased their rate of progress. So am I a sellout just because I present training techniques that I know to work very well?

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:smiley: :smiley: :smiley: Excellent reply. THe old 'cos J. Bloggs did it arguement. For every lifter who (occasionally…for fun/variety) did such an exercise I could name 5 who didn’t. Additionally, the enormous CNS stress induced by any supramaxima lift will certainly be detrimental to subsequent sessions. Estimates from Russian literature during the 80s suggests that eccentric lifting accounted for less than 0.5% of total training volume and that intensity was limited to 110%.

Why don’t T-mag just print a page of Supertraining or S&P of Strength Training each week (they could save your fees)?!

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Why all the hate? Are you one of those “head hunters” who like to take swings at coaches who publish just to be argumentative or for personal reasons?

Anyway, do as you like I really don’t care. I know that my techniques work and I know that I’m in no way trying to “sellout” or look more inventive than the next guy. Next why don’t you bash Louie Simmons since he probably experiment with more methods than anybody else in theworld.

Rwgardless, if you are only looking for a pissing contest you won’t get one from me, I won’t give you that pleasure. Do as you please and believe wjat you want, I have nothing to gain either way. I’m just trying to help by passing on stuff that I found to be very effective.

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No hate. Just you come on here with your ‘check my latest article…’ and that article just isn’t going to be efficient (effective)training for most the athletes here (or on T-mag).

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BTW David, please do not perceive the preceding post as an attack of any kind. I read some of your articles and greatly respect you academic background and you do seem to have a very bright scientific mind and appear to apply it quite well.

There was a time where I would myself be harsh on what I call “practical coaches” who tinker and try new methods, sometimes even before science had evidence that such methods would work. I remember being quite brutal when talking about guys like Poliquin, Chek et al. But ever since I pretty much left the scientific/lab arena to spend most of my days in the trenches, working mostly with athletes who only have 3-4 months to get in phenomenal shape I realised that sometimes you must be bold and go against the grain. You must experiement with a lot of new methods to see what works best. Sometimes I failed miserably (obviously I wont write any article about that!) but when I stumble upond something that give great results I stick with it and try to get the message across.

Now, I cannot say that I like Poliquin and Chek (I still believe that CP is an unbearable egomaniac) but I understand were they are coming from.

You may recall some of my earlier article (from Ironmag and such) in which I was much more theoretical and somewhat scientific. But as I started writing for a bigger audience I realised that most peoples don’t care about that stuff. So I faced a dilemma:

Should I:

a) stick to my guns and write more scientific and theoretical stuff. Articles that would surely not be of much interest to most peoples.

b) tone down my articles a bit, trying to get the same message across in a somewhat diluted fashion knowing full well that this may lead to a loss of support or criticism from scientific minds in the field.

I chose b), not because of financial reasons, but rather because it allowed me to get the word out to more peoples. Sure it may turn off guys with an academic background such as yourself, but if it can improve the quality of training of the average trainee it’s worth it.

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David, I’ve been using that exact same program with 17 of my athletes (hockey players and football players) so far. And after 4 weeks of training all have improved tremendously … they progressed at a much faster rate than ever before. And not all of them are genetic freaks. In fact I would only qualify one of them as a freak, with a few more having an above average genetic potential.

Obviously the program is not for a competitive olympic lifter or for a powerlifter. Although I used much of the same techniques with the current +105kg Canadian champîon with good success. And some of these techniques have been taught to me by Pierre Roy who used them with Jacques Demers (1984 silver medalist 75kg class).

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As I see it, you are much like I was 1-2 years ago. Unless I’m mistaken you are an olympic lifting coach (and probably a competitive lifters, or used to be one). I don’t know much about the olympic lifting scene in Great Britain, but here in Canada it’s somewhat of a “purist” crowd. Basically they frown upon new methods and anything that strays away from the olympic lifting norm.

Compare it to the powerlifting scene, which is a lot more open to innovations. Men like Louie Simmons which are not affraid of trying new things. In his new video, Louie has guys box squatting with 2 sets of bands, a pair of weight releasers and 4 sets of chains attached to the weight releasers … certainly not something that would strike me as effective or efficient. But heck, the guy has trained more than 20 guys squatting over 800lbs! Of course one could argue that these squats were accomplished using supportive gear, but we’re still talking about at least 700lbs squats raw. In the video some guys are even doing speed reps with 585lbs without equipment, that is strong.

So maybe Louie’s methods, which may seem odd or illogical to some, are not so foolish.

In the same way, maybe my methods may seem odd or ineffective to you, but so far they have been super effective with all the athletes who tried them.

BTW, I also use a lot of bands, chains, weight releasers (I even use weight releasers for hang snatches and hang clean!), EMS and other “odd” methods. So now feel free to call me crazy … I don’t care IT WORKS!