Progression to Overall mileage :
Yes my plan is a future target - My 4xweek run suggestions are a core schedule that I found worked for racing distances up to 10K. And I felt comfortable to complete 10-13 miles in training runs. To race 10M and above and/or maintain high weekly mileage your schedule looks bascially ok. Of the interval sessions I would introduce the 10x400 last. If you are struggling with the overall mileage you could stick to just 2 interval sessions per week to maximise steady state running. The Friday session of 1M reps could be replaced on some weeks by a 3mile time trial. Is it a half marathon plan you found somewhere ?
Since you have 8-12 months before the trials it is better to be conservative in increasing mileage. I found it easy to go from 10m per week to 25 and harder after that - but I may have been lucky with not being particularly inclined to injuries. So better safe than sorry so build mileage as you plan with occasional de-loads.
Progression for 1.5mile trial :
As you say there are 2 ways, (1) start with volume and get quicker. For example do 5x800 in say 3.30 and train the times down to just below 3.00. Or (2) start with lower volumes at target pace and increase the distances. For example 12x200 in 45 secs, then 10x300 at this pace and so on. As you say I prefer to start with volume and get quicker (option 1). The exception is for the person who is basically a slow runner and needs to actually work at their speed. I had a friend who ran 7 min mile pace for 10ks, ok but not brilliant. However he ran 7mins also for a marathon and almost broke 3 hours !!
You need to do a bit of running to see what type of person you are. Often a 400m trial and a 1m trial will show your basic speed and ability to sustain it.
Progression for 4M time trial:
Start running a hard 3 mile session relatively soon, I guess this will take you around 26 mins (8.5 min miling) looking at your current times. Do it every 2 weeks and watch the times drop. Probably on your Friday session.
I am a great believer in running the longer and steady state runs at M or E pace. Bit I like to take a checkpoint of speed and forget the R/I/T concepts and do interval runs at defined and improving paces. Paces that match target race distances. This may be a type A personality/obsessive trait I have !
I agree that using targeted race paces is the way togo here, and am thankful for your help explaining how to go about it. I once read on the forum somewhere somthing along the lines of “theres only two training paces hard and easy” and this falls in line with what you are recommending. Plainly keeping it simple. I need to start attacking my goal times.
I got the weekly outline of my current schedule from “military special operations, training for selection” by James smith, in which he suggests following JD’s guidlines. I started with a weekly mileage i knew i would be comfortable with and basically came up with the plan to start increasing volume 20%/week to hit my goal mileage. So all the scheduled runs in the week are always there, just volume is added. I can see how you woukd think this was a half marathon plan once the mileage is finally built.
I chose my current plan due to my lacking aerobic cap. As i thought my plan would help build that up and help my race goals. So should i stick to this for the next 6-12 weeks or…
Drop this plan and adopt your sessions immediately. As you pointed out i should attack my race times and mileage concurrently. If i did, i believe as you said, the main way to increase my mpw would be through the semi long and long runs. As the 1.5 mile and 4mile sessions would relatively have the same volume/week.
If i did go to something as you suggested. Keep the 4 and 1.5 mile sessions on hi days which would leave me one left over. (M,w,f) hi days.
As far as low days (tu,th,sat) what would you suggest. I know one of the things i thought about in my current schedule was the fact that i was also trying to adapt to running 5days/week as i will be at bud/s. Though keeping the low days E runs,long run, or M runs.
5 days per week running is probably optimum, especially with your other training.
I dont want to tread on James Smith toes - I have great admiration for his sprinting and strength guidelines and I have no knowledge of armed forces selection. I can only speak for what I have found works with endurance runners who compete at these levels.
You actually have 3 hi days in your schedule - (1) 1.5m pace, (2) 4m pace, (3) v long run. Hi in a sprinting context is activity that taxes CNS and presents a risk of acute muscular injuries if volume is excessive. There is no hiin endurance running - it ishard` represented by intervals, pace/threshold runs and long runs. These combined with other steady state runs can lead to dehydration, low glycogen stores, generally sore muscles (but usually not exploding hamstrings) and general fatigue. You may see raised resting heart rate and sleep problems as other symptoms.
One of the reasons I caution against a 3rd interval session in a week is you can end up with 4 out of 5 days being hard.
For the volume of running you need to do and your relative inexperience, building an aerobic base by maximising steady state runs is beneficial. So the schedule simplifies to 1.5M pace, 4M pace and long run as your hard days. 2 other steady runs in the range of 5-10 miles.
Injury prevention ideas : Run some interval sessions on grass to save the legs. Reduce mileage on every 4th week, eg 20,24, 28 down to 20. There are no rules just see how this feels. Do some intervals on grass. Non impact training is good and you have that with swimming and a lesser extent body weight circuits.
Boredom and variety : Sometimes you can go out and do a 30 min run and finish with some tempo such as 10x100 or some hills.
Summary
25 year old male
Previously did bud/s in 2012 but had to withdraw due to injury
Been active since? Define this?
Goat to do Bud/s training in 8 to 12 months ( which is pipeline to Navy Seal training)
Needs advice on how best to prepare
I have some thoughts based on following this thread since 1 week ago.
Question?
How did you fracture your left femur? What therapy did you do? Are you 100 percent healed and has there been any issues or fallout since then that you are aware of?
General Rule = Play to your strengths to get you where you need to go. Use the water to expand and accelerate your aerobic capacity and jump start your training. I’d be in the pool 3 times a week if possible doing running volumes as well as lengths included in and or outside of the specific technical aspects of what you need.
General Rule = Training to failure for all exercises is not efficient for what you need. I think you have learned this from your experience with old school trainer?
Mind over Matter = some have commented that to survive Navy Seal 80 % mental + 20% physical = without a doubt experiencing war, tragedy and catastrophe brings out traits in people that can not be explained other than having the mind to do courageous and unexplainable things. However, you must get yourself as physically prepared as possible and you will be at your best to be mentally prepared. Does this make sense to you?
Load Progressions? = I was curious why you are using 5 weeks on and 1 week low?
5 weeks is a long time to go to keep adding load.
“ The principle of gradual increase of load in training is the basis for all planning of athletic training, from micro cycle to Olympic cycle, and should be followed by all athletes regardless of their level of performance”. ( Theory and Methodology of Training page 44 Tudor O. Bompa )
We do not know much about your training background except you have experienced a serious injury. Wouldn’t a lower step progression of 3 weeks to build and 1 to recover be more realistic?
Running Velocity = Keep this information in mind when planning
High Intensity work = 95 to 100 % of Best Time
high central nervous system demand
enhances muscle fiber recruitment
requires complete recovery between reps
requires a minimum of 48 hours recovery between sessions
Medium Intensity work = 76 % to 94% of Best Time
too slow to be specific to the training objective
too high to recover adequately within 24 hours
( we never did medium work ever for reasons above
Low Intensity work = 75% of Best time or slower
Circulatory/ active recovery
Speed enhancement through the effect of increased capillary density ( i.e. heating motor neurons, lowering electrical resistance).
Enhances ability to maintain warm-up for prolonged intervals during speed training
Increased capillary density slows blood flow through tissue allowing more time for nutrient transfer and waste removal
Advice from Mike Caviston = “don’t run in boots, learn to run in sand” I am paraphrasing here.
Traditional wisdom used to be that running into the wind as a good idea so you could practice what it might be like running into the head wind. The advice to not train in boots coincides with how we used to train. Get as fit and as prepared as possible and you will adapt to running in boots when or if the time comes.
Running in sand is different and will require some exposure and adaptation. The rule still holds = the more physically prepared you are the more you will be able to endure all things.
How to prepare for Hell Week =
Time everything and record everything and find a plan, stick to your plan and if you are doing this alone you need to re evaluate often to see where you stand regarding your goals and targets.
The game as far as I see it is to get ultra prepared and take full advantage of anything regenerative that you are able to do.
Oldbloke has experience doing some of this longer run training. James has worked with someone in this area. Both scenarios are interesting and will be helpful for you.
In short, I broke my femur by falling from about 25ft. I was med rolled for about 6 months to heal and complete pt. My naval doctor was sort of a quack, not much experience it was his first months as a doctor. He wanted me to complete another 6months of pt before he woukd put me fit for full to reclass up for bud/s. I got frustrated, as by that point i had been sitting arojnd on my ass for 6months, and got out under force reduction, so id be able to rejoin in the future and re enter bud/s and get proper attention through a private doctor.
Since then i have had my leg looked at by several pts and doctor’s and have been cleared, as well as having no problems with it since i broke it.
I choose the 5/1 loading progression for my first two 6 week cycles because my fitness is farr lower than it has been in the past. An analogy ive read on this forum and have heard many tines elsewhere regarding capacity, the protein shaker. If your shaker is increasing in size faster than the ingredients inside because it was previously an xxl shaker, why would you unload?
I was planning on dropping to 3/1 after these two 6 week cycles depending on how it goes. Nothing is set in stone. Just a general plan and all the micro managing will come when it needs too.
I feel like 3/1 load progression is arbitrary. Ive seen many of these 2/1;3/1; 4/2; 6/1 8/1 even 12 wks before unload week- a 2/1 could technically add more load than and 6/1 week loading cycle it all depends really how much your increasing the load via experience and fitness
I was inder the impression your running intesities were for anaerobic power sports (speed/power) ie 100m dash, not for distance running. Please correct me if i an wrong.
For example my current 1 mile is 7min
7/.65= 10:48/mile this is not my easy running pace
Deloading: A compromise here since I agree with Angie. If you have greater work capacity for a 5 week cycle, stick to that model but deload your running volume more frequently (eg 3;1) but increase swimming volume in those weeks.
High/Low/Medilum : I agree with you (sorry angie !) these are sprinting intensities. Its why I prefer the term hard` to avoid confusion. Effort levels in endurance running can be measured in various ways.
(1) RPE - Rate of Perceived Exertion, how you feel on a scale of 1 to 10.
(2) Checking lactate levels at the end of a training session by blood test. It models when you are becoming less aerobic and more lactic. Only for the elite with facilities…
(3) The conversational check - can you comfortably carry out a conversation with someone at the same time as running. This would be the M or E pace running, anything faster would not permit a conversation.
(4) Heart rate monitoring.
Unlike sprinting the highest level of effort is not necessarily the fastest speed. Some people find a 10 mile run harder that 4x1m, or vice versa.
Volumes of hi/med/low :
Rather like sprinting i would say 3 hard (Hi) efforts per week are max.
As a generalisation in sprinting, quality is more important than quantity If you see someone post here a recommendation of (4x20m) then (4x30m), dont try 8x20 and 8x30. But, as an endurance runner generally 6mile run is better than 3mile, etc.
There is nothing wrong with medium intensity if you are using it to build mileage in the (say) 4-8m range. As long as you are doing shorter runs fast and putting in the long run (slowly), You need to be comfortable at a range of speeds if you are time trialling 1.5M and 4M and doing a 14M run.
Deloading- as far as the deload i feel i have been adapting fine even with coming in to this plan with a prior 6 weeks of training with no deload. This 6 week cycle which i am on week 2 of builds from 12mpw-25mpw with week 6 being 20mpw for an unload as well as unloading all other components. Compared to my past experience, ~50-60mpw, 12-25mpw over 5 weeks will not be all that demanding. I may switch to 3/1 after this though to be cautious (it depends how i feel after my deload and what my times are at that point as i will be testing after deload week) . I understand the purpose of a deload but have always found it tough to properly implement them. I have read great running plans both with and with out deloads (minus taper) and have always been confused by this. As well id like to deload all physical components at once so my training never gets to far from me and for simplicity.
High/low/med- i have i the past tried several of your ideas with intensity of effort levels for endurance.
RPE- of course this is individualistic, but i have never found this to be an accurate indicator. I always under judge my perceived effort compared to actual effort.
Lactate levels would be nice but i just dont have the knowledge or time to implement this effectively.
Conversation check ive found works nicely for E runs as well as HR. The problem with heart rate i feel is there are so many variables that effect this and again dont have the proper knowledge and experience to HR data effectivel.
Ive been using something diffrent to gauge proper intensity that has been working well for me which is basing training run intensity off recent time trial. Never married to these paces but use them as a guage and always adapting weather, fatigue, ect to the baseline paces. This has been working well for me at least.
I actually messeaged JD about his Vdot tables. In his book he says to use your most recent race times for your training paces. For me i recently ran a 7min mile. Everything besides my R paces (1mile pace) seemed off and to hard to hit with proper rec, as you all can see with my first threshold run it was quite tough. So i messaged him about this…
His response
You are pretty normal for some people who tend to race better at shorter distances (maybe because of the amount of training you do or because of your physiological makeup). I would use still use your mile pace for rep sessions; then try lower vdots (based off a more aerobic effort ie 5k race) for the Interval stuff and for your threshold workouts. It is quite normal for those stronger in the 800 and 1500/mile to have to add 8-10 seconds per 400 to Rep pace for Intervals and another 8-10+ seconds per 400 to Interval pace for Threshold. What I tend to do with my athletes to be even more accurate is create time trials for most all paces. 1 mile TT for reps, 3k for intervals, and a one hour TT for Threshold. As far as threshold goes, because a one hour TT is so exhausting, I tend to use .93 of 5k TT.
3pm
Wu-mobility + stretch
6 x (decline push ups x 28 + lateral lunge x 12 + pull up x 6 + firehydrants x 12 + abs x 75)
Then
Aux: 4x 20sec iso back ext + 3 x 20 wrestlers bridge (ext/flex)+ (y,t,w,n’s) x 2 x10ea + bb shrug x 3 x 10-15 x 195
Later
8pm
Wu- 1mile @ E (2-3 strides towards end)+ dynamic/mobility full body
Then
1x200m @ R pace (53s.) w/ 2min rest (56s.)
2x400 @ R pace (1:45) w/ 4min rest (1:48, 1:48)
Then
Cd- 1mile @ E + stretch
5 sets apread though out day**push ups x11 + pullups x 2 + flr x20s. + 8counts bodybuilders x 5 +flr x 20s.)
11am
225m @ easy pace
Then
2x225m (all out) w/ 5min. Rec (5:33,5:11)
Then
225m @ easy pace + 30/30 abs= 150r
*all swimming CSS.tide was pretty slack. 1st rep my swim was alittle zigzagy, 2nd rep straightend up. Staying on course in open water is very important it can add alot of extra meters that can add on large amounts of time esp in long distance swims.
Later
1200m run @ easy pace
*i work later this evening so will probably do it after work.
Sady I think is asking about your idea about the suggestion to use water to accelerate your fitness?
I too am wondering and asking why you would not do water workouts for more training outside of the ocean?
Long swim- starting at 900m. And progressing by adding 225m/week to this
2 . threshold swim- 90-95% speed you can hold for 15-20 min. Progression would be something like…starting at 10-15min > 20min > 2 x12min > 2x15min > 2x20min. Ect…
At the moment all i have is the gulf of mexico to work with. I came up with these sessions in light of that. I use the distance from pier to pier which is 225m. (One length).
The only public pool around here to work with is the YMCA. It is quite expensive ( go figure) 70/month plus 50 starting fee. But i am working on it.
Almost all swimming at bud/s is open water. So why not train in open water. Swimming a straight line is one of the biggest challenges in open water. And with 2mile open water timed swimms at bud/s, i feel training in open water will pay off greatly. Its quite diffeent in a pool not having to deal with currents, tides, water conditions, weather, and in a pool you have lines on bottom of pool to keep you straight. Open water is a diffrent animal.
Though i am aware of the benefits pool training has as well. Easier for speed work (pools are alot more consistent, less variables to deal with, but this is why my speed session is all outs because if i was trying to hit specific times in a open water it just woukdnt work.
What other kinds of pool work are you suggesting. I know youve suggested pool running, but i just know how to fit this in. I know for recovery and building endurance but thats what my easy swims and runs are for only more specific to what im training for.
11:30am
Wu- 800m @ easy pace w/ 2 strides
Then
1x400m @ T pace (2:16) w/ 30 s. Rest + 2 x 1000m @ T pace (5:40) w/ 1min rest
(2:08), (5:42), (5:46)
*dragging today didnt get much sleep last night
Later
3pm
Wu- stretch + mobility
5x (push up, 5 plates under chest, x 34+ pull up x 7)
5x (walking lunge x 12+ glute bridge x 12)
30/30 abs = 450r
Then
Aux- iso back ext 5x20s + wrestlers bridge 4 x 20-25 + y,t,w, n’s x 2 x 10ea + 2 x 15-20 x 195
I believe SAdy and I are on the same page regarding our thinking on the pool.
I am not able to outline this right now but I believe you are missing a big wide open chance to get a base fitness that I am not sure currently you have.
I think right now you are doing some very specific things which is good but I think you might be lacking some background training. Running sets in the pool is a kind and gentle way to get volume done.
ON Charlie’s advice I had an overweight young female train in the pool up to 3 x a week with 20 sets of running ( 2 sets of 45 sec running / 15 seconds floating) to replace volume needed for NYC marathon. She only had from July to November. Otherwise she would have not been able to manage enough volume to be fit enough. She complained but kicked a training partners ass leading into the last long run of the training about 2 weeks out. It was only then she realized the value of the pool. Yes, She still did other training. Yes she still did some long runs but we picked and chose which runs. Her training partner was a male same age whom followed the tables online. I think you need to think a bit out of the box.
ANd I don’t have the chance at this moment but you are wrong to ignore the high , med and low idea. It applies to all training IMO. I have not studied all experts but performance is performance the if you are looking to be efficient , injury free and get the job done then I would not be picking and choosing with percentages. This is what I have been taught. It’s worked for me for 25 plus years and I was fortunate enough to be coached by some of the very best.
In my case, it is a problem getting across my ideas clearly on the web and receiving as well, i guess i am hard with words. I assumed sady was referring to something in oldblokes post since he quoted oldbloke in his post, though it didnt make much sense to me at the time. Now that i re read what sady had said it seems to me he may have been questioning why i had a swim session then 5 days later with no exercise (meaning no swimming for 5 days) did i have a 900m swim session. But really who knows maybe he was referring to pool running, only sady knows.
But besides the point, i do feel pool running could prove to be beneficial, and i do need to think out of the box. I guess the question is where to fit it in my schedule (i have a good number of sessions every week as is but things can be changed), as well as, i have never run any session of this sort and at the moment i dont think i can properley implement it correctly and effectively. I have read a good deal about them here, maybe you could answer some questions i am unclear on for these pool running sessions.
I am assuming these arent all out efforts, so they’d have to be prescribed off of a time trial and use 75% and under for aerobic development and recovery? If you dont do something like this how do you know the athlete isnt pushing into the upper zones and impeding recovery?
Would you use these pool sessions to substitute normal easy runs altogether or use them every now and then to lessen the stress on the body ie during unload weeks or days i feel the body needs alittle something less stressful than even an easy run.
Or would you use them on harder days 75% and up?
What do you mean when you say you believe right now i do some very specific things but might be lacking some background training?
I may come off as ignoring certain things such as pool running or the high low med idea, but its that i dont grasp the concepts to effectivley use these ideas at the moment and i dont doubt their effectiveness and would enjoy using them for my goals. I have used high low med in the past with good results. I dont know how to apply them for distance running though or distance swimming.
I have studied many diffrent material for all sorts of training, its become a passion of mine post military, though still consider myself a begginer and am always trying to learn. The tough part is putting it all together for my goals with the military, distance running, endurance in various calisthenic exercises, work capacity, swimming, ect. James smith book has helped a good deal as well as other things and that is why i am here because i know youall know a good deal and i appreciate all of the help that is given. i look back to when i first went to bud/s (and thrived besides the injury) and think man i didnt know shit and was doing just fine. I trained for the good part of a year my first time going in the military, not knowing zilch compared to now, and always remind myself of that. I had exelerated scores on my pst. I am fearful of never being prepared enough but i know i will be, this is what i want. I am looking forward to going back stronger and wiser. My goal is to be able to pass at least all timed physical events by a mile, which i have done before, mostly everything besides timed events , i feel regarding bud/s, you either have or you dont. I need to focus on my swim times push ups pull ups sit ups and run times because this is what will get me there. Once these are good to go ill put more focus on next things down list. What i am currenlty doing is modeled off of james smiths book on training for selection. I know he has been to bud/s and has trained clients for bud/s. I wrote up 12 weeks of training off of his manual and would like to at least stick to it for atleast a 6 week cycle and go from there. Angie and oldbloke have both made great suggestions which i have taken to heart and will likley add in as time goes.
Again thank you all for your help. It is priceless to me.
Training question that ive always wondered
Distance coach says, repeats at mile pace (ie 400m at mile pace) with full recoveries (1/2-3= w/r) is “speed” work for distance runner (anaerobic power, economy and speed) cant do this everyday, hard to recover from
Sprint coach says recovery/aerobic cap work is ext tempo (ie 75% and under of best at that distance, short rest) can do this every day easy to recover from
Ill use my current self as an example: tests ~ 10weeks ago
7min-1 mile (mile pace)
400m- 85 sec
So why is it if i do 400m repeats @ mile pace (1:45/400m) with work/rest @ 1/2-3 this is hard to recover from and shouldnt do much volume of (relatively -not 4000m of) or frequency per week says distance coach
But
Sprint coach says
Ext tempo 8x400m @ 1:53 (75%) w/ short rest say 1-2min rec, is recovery work and can do frequently. To a distance coach this would be borderline mile pace"speed"/vo2max work and would be a hard workout?
Ive always been greatly confused by this. Even if ext tempo was dropped to 65% (~2:11/400m) this would still be threshold work to a distance coach and a hard workout as well, definitely not to be done everyday. The distance session even has 2-3times more recovery granted it is done faster. One calls it recovery/aerobic work the other calls it a speed session. I dont get it…
???
" So why is it if i do 400m repeats @ mile pace (1:45/400m) with work/rest @ 1/2-3 this is hard to recover from and shouldnt do much volume of (relatively -not 4000m of) or frequency per week says distance coach
But
Sprint coach says
Ext tempo 8x400m @ 1:53 (75%) w/ short rest say 1-2min rec, is recovery work and can do frequently. To a distance coach this would be borderline mile pace"speed"/vo2max work and would be a hard workout? "
Due to levels of effort/intensity for each type of athlete.
Relative intensity :
400M reps at 1M pace for a distance runner is faster than their normal training pace and probably their fastest interval session of the week.
400M reps for a sprinter in a tempo session is slower than race pace and their slowest session of the week.
Absolute speed :
For you as a developing endurance runner your current Pb is 85 secs, for a developing sprinter it might be 60 secs…
Overall programme : Stick with what worked for you last time. Add in James Smith stuff since his guidelines are specific to the demands of selection.
You can put mine in later if you like - they are specific to running only !! Just use the target pace running as the iceing on the cake later.
As a matter of interest. What times were you running over 1.5 and 4M in the latter stages of your previous attempt and/or during selection ?
This still doesn’t make sense to me. I know 1M pace would be faster than my 4mile and tempo would be slower than my 400m… thats obvious. Say i was training for 2 distances concurrently to compete in (400m run and 4 mile run.) Using my current pb’s i would build sessions, so id have ext tempo sessions and 1M pace sessions. So how would 1M pace session,like the one in my previous post using my pb in 1M, and ext tempo session as in above post ,again using my pb in 400m,both done with damn near the same speed and the mile pace session with more rec, how would the latter be anaerobic power and former be aerobic cap/rec work…? Your body does not know if you are a “sprinter or a distance athlete” it only reacts to specific sessions that are developed to target certain systems/qualities. If anyone can clear this up for me thatd be great.
push ups x11 + pullups x 2 + flr x20s. + 8counts bodybuilders x 5 +flr x 20s.)