I understand Charlie reasons for unweighted ab movements but there has been a lot of talk lately about weighted ab movements, I would like to hear from some of the VET’s about this topic…
talk from?
Various members, RJ24 is one of them. He has valid points but would like to hear from others.
I’ll throw in my side of the story now.
There is a body of evidence relating sprint speed to hip flexion strength (which is in turn related to abdominal and psoas cross sectional area), and with the outstanding top speed frontside mechanics of today’s top performers it’s obvious they have some insane ab and hip flexor strength (to maintain proper pelvic position and prevent excess backside mechanics).
Basically, I disagree with doing hundreds of reps of unweighted ab exercises as it doesn’t make sense physiologically.
In order to sprint at high speeds we need explosive hip flexors and isometrically strong abdominals. If we wanted stronger and more explosive glutes then we wouldn’t do hundreds of reps of bodyweight squats. We’d do heavy squats with moderate reps. The same should go for the abs and hip flexors.
And I know what the counterarguement is. Charlie says that training the abs and hip flexors in a high intensity manner drains resources, but I say that they’re resources that need to be spent. We use weights for the rest of our body, why not include abdominal and hip flexor work, especially with its huge importance? I mean, evidence suggests that fast sprinters have much larger psoas volume, and the way to most effectively hypertrophy a muscle is through weights.
Also, for the people who say squats are enough, they aren’t. Back squats, DLs, and the OLY lifts primarily stress the spinal erectors, while the abdominals only help maintain pelvic position. While abs play a role here, they’re far from vital. If you think about it, claiming squats and DLs train your abs is like stating that weighted sit ups train your spinal erectors. Sure, each muscle gets worked in each respective movement, but only in an assistance role.
And yeah, that’s basically what I had to say.
I completely agree with you!
45 steps in 100m = 45 heavy weighted ab exercises. Or less? I dont do 45 cleans for example!
EDIT - although, having said that, I dont do loads of weighted abs, and do alot of unweighted, traditional style abs. I guess I can see both sides of the arguement to be honest.
Well, if you’re training for strength any hypertrophy then you’d probably want to keep the set duration between 10-40 seconds (reps will vary with the exercise chosen). But if you were trying to recreate race specific energy systems demands then you would likely do one rep per step in the race.
And the ROM over which one trains is important too. The hip flexors do their work when the femur is in line with the torso (hip neither extended nor flexed).
Good discussion and will be interesting to see how it develops.
rj24, a few questions re your post
There is a body of evidence relating sprint speed to hip flexion strength (which is in turn related to abdominal and psoas cross sectional area), and with the outstanding top speed frontside mechanics of today’s top performers it’s obvious they have some insane ab and hip flexor strength (to maintain proper pelvic position and prevent excess backside mechanics).
agree re hip flexion strength but would you say Asafa has proper pelvic position? I thought there was quite a bit of discussion to the contrary, that he was sitting with a bent leg and not getting triple extension.
And I know what the counterarguement is. Charlie says that training the abs and hip flexors in a high intensity manner drains resources, but I say that they’re resources that need to be spent. We use weights for the rest of our body, why not include abdominal and hip flexor work, especially with its huge importance? I mean, evidence suggests that fast sprinters have much larger psoas volume, and the way to most effectively hypertrophy a muscle is through weights.
I thought the argument had to do with the abdominal muscles being most receptive to low intensity / high volume work. Also CF has always recommended lots of hip flexor involvement in ab sessions which is contrary to what some suggest but I wonder if that is also a flexibility / strength endurance related matter.
Why would you hypertrophy a muscle for the sake of it, surely that should be a by product of the training. (yes I know all about the different hypertrophy discussions so please don’t sidetrack to that ;))
So what would you suggest as exercises?
John, in regards to Asafa, he has practically no backside mechanics. In order for this to happen, he does need to land with a relatively flexed leg and does forego triple extension. I don’t know if it’s optimal, but it works.
Regardless of whether of not his pelvic position is optimal, strong abdominals and hip flexors are needed to hold proper sprint form.
As for your second point, yes, the abs are comprised of mostly type I fibers, but that doesn’t really change anything. In everyday life they’re a postural muscle, and are therefore active for long periods of time, and are therefore slow twitch. They way they are used in a sprint however (isometrically with a reactive contraction when the push off leg is brought back forward) requires they produce a large amount of force over a time span of no more than one minute. In order to condition them to produce high levels of tension, more intense work is needed.
For the third point, you wouldn’t be seeking hypertrophy, but would be seeking strength. And since strength comes much easier with accompanying hypertrophy, it would seem to be a good idea to use intermediate reps. Besides, going for a 3RM on an abdominal exercise doesn’t seem smart. :eek:
And as for exercises, I actually wrote an article on the topic and tried to contact Rupert in hopes of getting it published a couple days ago, but he hasn’t responded. I’ll post it in the strength training session.
Here’s a link:
http://www.charliefrancis.com/community/showthread.php?p=213856#post213856
You answered your own proposition! So how many steps are you taking in your sprint workouts in total? If you total up your sprint strides, your weights, and your Med Ball throws, you’ll see pretty quickly how many loaded reps you already have.
Remember how much high intensity stuff you need to get through and be careful about looking for more that will compete for your hi intensity resources that are assumedly already maxed out.
I also believe that people do not take into consideration the contribution of high intensity, quality sprinting itself to the total equation.
I’ve been doing 40 yard dash testing for football this past week, and we had one kid step up (he’s literally a bone-rack) and record one of the fastest 40 times of the group. Never lifted before (he couldn’t bench 95 lbs when he arrived). Just ran and played sports. Would you say his abdominal strength is inadequate and that he needs more high intensity abdominal work? Obviously, good quality sprint training plays a role in developing the high intensity abilities required for sprinting, including abdominal and hip flexor strength.
I’m now focusing my efforts on getting him “generally” strong.
Most “well-intentioned” programs I’ve seen directed at specifically working abs and hip flexors dynamically and at a high intensity have resulted in abdominal strains and chronic low back pain. “The road to hell is paved with good intentions.” Food for thought.
Number Two, using one kid as an example doesn’t make much sense. I mean, why do any weights with him if he’s so fast? Just because some athletes don’t need work in a specific area doesn’t mean it’s not beneficial for the majority of other athletes.
And yes, sprinting does play a huge role in developing hip flexor strength, but no more so than it does for the glutes and hamstrings, yet people still suggest weight training for those muscle groups. What I can’t understand is why people weight train every muscle group but somehow treat the abdominals and hip flexors differently.
Finally, those programs that end up causing their athletes lower back pain and ab strains are doing it wrong. You want to know how many people I’ve seen pull hamstrings and suffer from horrible shin splints just from sprinting? Just because some people manage to screw up a training method doesn’t mean it’s bad, just that they’re stupid.
As I tried to point out in the two weights for speed products, you need to sum up what is done in total to get the real picture.
Along those lines as well, the program that gained better results from flexor work than extensor work might well have been explained by the absence of stress on the working area more than the benefits of the area worked in the weight room- see again my comments on the Bench as a general organism stimulus.
RJ,
If this is the case, would exercises using weights strapped onto the upper thigh provide the same stimulus as weighted ab exercises? Surely that involves a little more specific hip flexion than lying down or hanging from a bar and raising ones legs?
Just curious, because I have a friend who uses this and swears by it, I have had my doubts purely because I’ve never seen or heard of any elite sprinter using such a contraption. In fact, I can’t express how little I’ve even heard hip-flexor exercises/ resistance being included in training programs for sprinters other than cleans, box step ups and similar movements which emphasize more hip extension.
You won’t be able to bring the load to an acceptable level to induce much hypertrophy by strapping weights to the thigh. Much like high-knees or skips though, it can provide a training stimulus.
And you do see a lot of hip flexor training in top sprinters’ routines. Sprints, hills, ab work, skips, etc. They all work the hip flexors. These might not be enough for the average Joe though.
Those who are naturally fast usually have an easy time putting on muscle and already have outstanding muscular development (relative to their frame) around the hips. But for someone without naturally large hip flexors (one study has indicated whites have psoas volumes roughly 1/3 those of blacks), specialized training is necessary.
I agree! Good point!
One of the training mistakes I made - in a quest for mighty hip flexors, was to put my foot through the loop of a kettlebell. I would do 300 reps on each leg, each day, in a standing position. I usually did 15 reps per set. Another method was to flip a lorry tire, over and over again, using my foot under the tire.
The problem is that both of those inovative training methods actually messed up my muscle lengths for sprinting and slightly slowed down my speed. You see; the support legs’ hams and glutes were tightening, and the calf was over-active. Not only that, but there was eventually; a cumulative fatigue, actually preventing me from getting enough knee lift.
More food for thought:
- We are told that the psoas is only active when the thigh is at least at a right angle to torso, and higher.
- We are told that the psoas muscle size is more important than the size of other hip flexors such as rectus femoris. (the Japanese study).
- Most ‘hip flexion’ exercises tend to do more for rectus femoris and sartorius than the psoas - therefor; not helping point 1 and point 2
- If we were to do gym exercise that work only in the physio and anatomists suggestion that psoas is only actyive in upper range - then we wouldn’t be getting full range of motion - would not be getting a dynamic exercise - and could actually get shortened and tightened psoas. From here - the psoas tends to have a mind of its own. Some profess that shortened and tightened psoas is in-active and non functional.
Others prupose that tightened psoas results in anterior pelvic tilt (which they suggest is actually good for sprinting.) And every (and I mean every) world class sprinter - had anterior pelvic tilt. This suggests tight psoas, but you’d hardly suggest the elite sprinters had non-functional psoas.
So what we have is a bucket load of contradictions and a puzzle.
The question is:
How do you;
A) Significantly strengthen the psoas
without;
b) making it over tight
yet having
c) anterior pelvic tilt (the sign of the great sprinter)
d) without loosing the functionality of the psoas
e) whilst still managing to train appropriate ranges of motion
f) without the exercise doing more for the rectus femoris and sartorius than the iliapsoas group.
(the Japanese study confirmed that it was the psoas size in relation to rectus femoris that had the strongest correlation to sprint speed, not the over all size per se. In other words, big psoas, average rectus femoris = high sprint speed. Or; big rectus femoris and gigantic psoas = great sprint speed. Or; small rectus femoris and medium size spoas = ok.
Nightmare. Lets have more discussion because it is important. I stopped doing incline sit uops a long time ago, as they seem to do more for the rectus femoris than the actual psoas major.
After all, in the incline bench, your feet are braced under pad, thus requiring rectus femoris contraction to anchor the legs.
A great post!
Thankyou .
Rather than post it again here, see my post in the “Anterior Chain” thread.
PJ James Charlie KK others thoughts on hip flexor exercises? Particularly for someone who lacks a step over and drags the feet in acceleration?