50m vs flying 30m

If i do a 50m dash would it have the same purpose as a flying 30 with a 20m run zone???

Flying 30 is top speed work and a 50meter from the blocks/standing/falling start is acceleration work with possibly a minor top speed component.

The flying 30 has a greater CNS impact.


how do you do flying 30’s with a 20 or 30 meter fly zone?

When do you ever get to top speed before first accelerating? If it takes you to 50 meters to accelerate then and only then will you be operating at top speed. How then can you get top speed within 30 meters. The time doing 30 meter fly is better spent accelerating and trying to get to top speed. You will never reach top speed doing a 30 meter fly…not if you are sprinting correctly. Even light takes time to accelerate. As Coach Tellez said, ‘the acceleration is the most important part of the race because that is what gets you to full speed’. You missed the whole concept of sprinting.

Getting to top speed requires the ability to accelerate until the ground can offer no more horizontal resistance. It takes the athlete time to engage the ground. This engaging of the ground slow the frequency of the cycle down. It is like a clutch of a car that is engaged which will slow the engine down because the tires on the ground are causing resistance to the engine. True the engine can operate at a higher frequency if the clutch is disengaged but the car will not go far. If the clutch is allowed to slip, the wheels would not get the full power from the engine. This what happens when you try to get top speed within 30 meters, (the clutch slips meaning the resistance of the ground is not fully there) so you indeed have a higher frequency but at the expense of velocity down the track. Yes, you are turning over fast but but going no where slow. You may feel fast because you are expending a lot of energy. At top speed is where the athlete relax so where does this fit in within the 30 meter fly. I would have rather you say a 30 meter acceleration then you would have made more sense.

Coachhare - So you’re basically discrediting flying 30’s as top speed/maxV work, correct?

If so, how do you recommend working on MaxV?

I should have been clearer.

Flying 30 as I have been doing them:

40-50 meter accel zone
30 meter top speed zone
deceleration zone

You are not exploding out of the blocks or doing an extremely aggressive start to this type of run. You are smoothly accelerating to top speed (whatever distance that takes) then reaching top speed and trying to hold it relatively comfortably for the required distance. (10-20-30 meters etc)

Hope this clarifies things a bit. My split times are generally faster for the 30 meter zone performing them this way compared to going flat out exploding out of the blocks and running like mad for the whole distance. The overall time for the total distance ran in the rep is slower (accel + top speed) but the 30 meter top speed zone is faster.

Since top speed can’t be held for over 20m, why not do flying 20s? You can see very clear examples of this on the new DVD from various build-up distances.
Coachhare: You can work on top speed form technically from ANY build-up distance, as long as you’re relaxed and technical perfection is your only objective.

We have found that our faster and more experienced sprinters work maxV better using 10-20m fly zones, where our more developmental athletes require 20-30m zones to reach our planned goals.

We have reasoned that the former can recruit, at a higher rate, the neural and stimulatory responses necessary to hit peak velocity rates in the shortened distance than the latter group. In addition to the fore/hind brain discussions, Charlie’s notations concerning the inhibition factor in MU recruitment, perhaps serves as rationale for these differences.

Depending on the maturity of the athlete and familiarization with the session, zone distances may vary. We found that it isn’t always about how fast the flying area is approached!

I’m not quite sure I understand. The velocity is determined by the acceleration distance before entering the zone. Is this what you mean? The shorter “fly distance” just allows you to keep it for as long as necessary, while maximizing your learning opportunity by allowing you to come back more often.

We’ve had athletes that recorded similar lead-up times (for 20-25m), where the difference in the 1st segment of the fly zone (10m) was several tenths of second, small-to-negligible in the 2nd segment and similar in the 3rd segment. We reasoned that the faster athletes were simply better at getting to top speed and didn’t need the 3rd segment of the fly zone.

On the other hand, the 3rd 10m segment was several orders better than the 1st with our less mature (strength levels, technical acumen, etc.) sprinters. However, as you stated, this eventually changes with consistent efforts. Typically, we have found that the 1st segment improves in a big way after the 2nd stage of development.

By the way, your Vancouver video and Forum Review helped a lot in understanding this. We are looking forward to the DVD for added insight in this and other areas.

Pushing the acceleration to the limit and then maintaining. It takes acceleration to get to top speed.

The mechanics and firing pattern are different when you push the ground than when you free wheel down the track. If enough distance is not allowed, then range of motion might be sacrifice for quickness. The athlete then turns but does allow the forces to work causing a shorter stride. Usually during the 30 meter fly what I have noticed is the athlete still trying to get faster. If the athlete is still trying to get faster during a 30 meter fly, then he is accelerating. The problem is the athlete never reaches top with the so call max velocity 30 meter fly.

This makes more sense.

CoachHare - alright, I got it. So Ins and Outs (which is what Chris described) are a better way to work MaxV since they allow for smoother and longer acceleration, correct?

For anyone - is it better for younger athletes to do flying 20’s or 30’s? CoachHare and Charlie have both brought up good discussion points.

I am not doing ins and outs though. Those imply a acceleration zone, float zone, max effort, float, etc.

I have an acceleration zone, top speed zone and then shutdown altogether.

That is a great point about keeping the top speed zone in the 20 meter range. I would be able to get in another 2 reps easily at that distance. (Maximizing learning)

I’ve always thought of of ins-and-outs as being acceleration, max effort (or maintaining top speed) and then decelerating (basically what you described). But, I guess I had it wrong.

But, as a young athlete with only a two-year training age, should I keep my flying sprints at only a 20m fly zone to maximize learning through repetitions?

This sounds better but instead of shutting down after 20 meter, you would try to take it as far as possible but relaxing and maintaining so that when you get in a race, you would do the same thing. Remember that what you practice is what you do. This also will give the CNS a good workout in learnig how to relax but not inhibit. I am not a Speed Dynamics fan so I do not do alot of that stuff (ins and outs etc)including a lot of their drills. When in doubt, ‘Sprint’.

So instead of having a set “fly” zone, just aim for a certain distance and try taking it out further every time while maintaining relaxation and form?

That is what I would do but allow enough time for the body to pick up speed through acceleration. Remember your velocity is the result of acceleration, time allowed to acceleration, and distance accelerated to a point before fatigue or some other variable steps in. Maintaining top speed or running at top speed is almost effortless because you have done the work prior to reaching top speed. Just relax and go along for the ride by maintaining. This is where most athletes struggle because they think that they have to press at top speed and they don’t.