Ok, cool. Thanks.
But by aiming for a certain distance, wouldn’t you in essence be setting a “fly” zone? And if not, please explain a little further.
For the athlete, base on his\her physiological state, 40-60 meters should be where the athlete tries to maintain. The athlete feels the point where top speed is reached and then tries to maintain. Top speed is a feel and each athlete will reach it at various point in the run.
I feel fastest (topspeed) when I do a flying runs as compared to a flat out 50 or 60m. I accelerate for 50m and then concentrate on maximum leg frequency making sure my stride length feels right. However, when I reach the 50m mark I find I need to fly for 30m since I need an extra 10m on top of the 50m to ensure acceleration is complete. Some would just say this is 60m build up and then a flying 20m, but I call it flying 30m since this is where the max effort is.
That makes sense to me but what about for the novice runner? It’s quite possible they may not realize when they are at TS (as crazy as it may sound). What do you do for athletes like these?
First thing is to find a good coach. Become a student of the sport. Don’t take ANYONE’S word if it does not make sense. Read the sciences and stay as close to them as possible. Look at how different things work and try to find out why they work that way. Watch animals run and try to see what they are actually doing. Give them examples of similar actions. I often use the example of a bike because most kids understand how to ride a bike. I ask them how to get to top speed on the bike and they usually give the right answers (peddle faster, higher gears, etc). They all say it takes time to max a gear out and to get to top speed…especially the highest gear. Ask what it feels like to max a gear out. I explain to all my athletes no matter what age. Eventual they grasp it. If the coach\athlete approach the subject from a Momentum point of view, it is easier to grasp. This for me is the art of Coaching.
Some good points. I find you can’t go past a scooter to explain type of contact. Everyone knows that you can only use your pushing leg on a scooter for so long until it starts braking you. Everyone knows that once you have accelerated as fast as you can, you ‘jab’ the ground as quickly and with as light a touch as possible.
Very few people naturally do this when sprinting. They try to ‘muscle’ or push the whole time.
Once they make the connection things happen.
Makes you wonder if my new product, the “Sprinter Scooter” could be the next big thing in assistance tools for track athletes! Only $1995.00 and is guaranteed to shave 2 tenths! Hehe
Thanks Coachhare,
Strangely enough I have been diong just that. Becoming MORE of a student of the sport. I am new to coaching and I have found that there is so much that I thought I knew but found out that there is so much to learn.
There are several web pages on momentum-impulse. Once you have read a couple of them you will soon see that some stuff that coaches say that does not make sense or they do not quite understand what they are saying…just repeating what they hear someone else say. Momentum-impulse is the back bone of sprinting. The big error made by coaches is with the time element of impulse. Think about it!
I can’t agree with this. This is mixing up two very different types of workout, maximium speed and speed endurance.
The reason for limiting the max v component to 20-30m in a speed development workout is so that you can do more of them at the highest intensity with the best possible technique.
Yes, the feeling and whole concept of top speed should be “easy” and “relaxed” and feel “effortless”, but believe me, it is giving the body and the CNS a wholesale pounding harder than just about any other component of training. Trying to extend this too far will in fact, limit the ability to reach new levels of speed and defeat the purpose of the workout.
Turning over fast does not mean you are actually running fast my friend. Why waste time trying to turn over fast but not covering any real distance. If you are turning over too fast too early then you are just skimming the ground. Sure you might feel fast because you rev the body up but the forces would not be applied correctly causing a decrease in impulse…therefore smaller changes in momentum. If turning over fast was an end in itself sure why not; but you must remember the purpose of the run is to get the body down the track as fast as possible. The whole idea is to bring momentum to a peak…I believe that is what top speed is supposed to be. The body will not travel its fastest speed in the first 3 to 4 seconds unless you are shot out of a cannon. Speed Dynamics has claimed another soul. Anyway, as I will always say when in doubt ‘accelerate’.
At top speed or maximum velocity (peak momentum), you relax but during a 30 meter fly you press. Pressing denotes that the athlete is still accelerating but not yet reached maximum veloctiy. The thing is that you never reach maximum speed until you are finished accelerating and if you can still accelerate, the you have not reached top speed. I would rather see an athlete try to push the acceleration out as far as possible where he is approaching unchartered territory (higher top speeds) than to just turn over and go no where.
How do you justify that first statement?? You can (and must) relax in the execution of ANY drill or sprint over any distance. In fact, shorter run ups to flying zones can be used, as top speed technical work can be done at slightly sub-max velocities, giving you the ability to:
1: Start your top speed skills earlier- even in the GPP!
2: Perform top speed drills more often within any one session.
Multiplying 1 x 2 (more opportunities by more reps) greatly increases the likelyhood of getting it right.
While you are right that top speed isn’t reached till acceleration is over, this does not imply that nothing can be done outside of that rate alone. If that were true, you’d be limited to only a few sessions per training block outside of competition.
We are all aware that top speed is the optimum balance between stride length and stride frequency and that max speed occurs beyond the point where max frequency occurs.
DCW is not a devotee of Speed Dynamics, and, just because you’ve seen SD tapes that use versions of drills I’ve used for over 30 years doesn’t mean that I am either.
When ever I see athletes doing 30 meter flies, they are pressing. I have not seen even once an athlete not press doing a fly. Looking at it from a technical point off view, the mechanics are different. You talked about tripple extention. It does not happen during the so 30 meter fly as I know it because the athlete does not allow enough time to extend. Most of the time the athlete is also reaching which for me is a big no no. As I always say and will say again, the most important thing is getting the body down the track as fast as possible. You can turn over until you turn blue but if you are not covering distance, you are wasting time. I believe in specificity of exercise so I would practice what I want to do in a race. I don’t quite understand when you say ‘technical work’. The same mechanics that gets you to top speed should be able to sustain you. Positions change, mechanics don’t.
I’m not qualified to speak against a coach for his beliefs or advice. All I can contribute is that flying 30’s are the only drill where I feel like I am TOTALLY relaxed. I know when I’m pressing and when I’m not, and I am DEFINITELY NOT during this drill. As a result of this forum’s teachings, with flying 30’s [in the absence of hard acceleration], I have learned better than ever to “run tall” and “effortless”, and my measured flying 30m time, a testament to the efficacy of the drill, has dropped nicely.
In fact, since I incorporated flying 30’s the ease at which I can now run at full tilt has carried over into personal bests in the 60m and 100m, which as Coachhare says, is the bottom line.
Before, all I used to do was run the actual events, 60m and 100m, over and over, trying to run relaxed but failing, and saw very slow progress as a result. I’m not going back to that.
If you don’t have the mechanics in place, you have to practice them. Those without perfect form must hone it over time, and, as athletes can concentrate on only one thing at a time, they may need many learning opportunities.
I am astounded that you can state with such certainty that proper form cannot be established via this method and that everyone who disagrees is wrong.
I have had more than a little experience in this field, and, YES, the athlete CAN extend in this drill.
“Reaching?”- Please note. This is not Speed Dynamics and no-one here is suggesting that you paw the ground.
“The most important thing is getting the body down the track as fast as possible.”- Now there’s a recipe for tightness! The athlete must concentrate on perfect form wherever he/she is in the race and let the “getting there” take care of itself!
“Tripple extention doesn’t happen.” -Anyone who is interested in setting this debate to rest once and for all can pick up my newly-released GPP DVD, where examples of these drills are presented at normal speed, slow mo, and stop action, to illustrate the very extension you say can’t happen.
I was wondering on Triple extension…does the leg fully extend at 180 or does it look like 180? Are we picking at 178 degrees not being triple extension?
“Tripple extention” has to be 180degrees- but triple extension is OK at 178!
I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I was questioning why you would want to continue your max v mechanics (i.e. once acceleration is complete) past the point of break down. I don’t think I mentioned anything about turning over fast for the sake of it?
I think you offer a rather simplistic model. Yes, the definition of acceleration is a good one, but the biggest problem that most sprinters have initially is to know how to run once acceleration is complete. For this they initially need quality technique work which can use a controlled shorter period of acceleration and then a switch to max v mechanics. No it is not the fastest way down the track, but unless you can master the feel at lower velocities you cannot hope to know what to do once your maximal acceleration is complete.