400m

Expert Discussion Advanced Sprint Training
21

Originally posted by kitkat1

[quote]Originally posted by athlete_400m
“Clyde has said before that it takes 40sec to build up lactic and a continued effort after is needed to get the most out of it”

I was just wondering…

During a pre-competition phase would it make sense to extend the standard 2 x 300m for 400m athletes. This could be done in a split endurance format.

What do forum members think of:
2 x [300 + 60] with 30-60 second/ full Recovery. i.e. after the standard 300m run at full effort, give 30-60second recovery and then another 60m at full effort.

…or is 2 x 300m sufficient?

Charlie, sprint_coach, Pioneer…others?

It has an important place: The stop/start breaks up dynamic stereotype and develops the capacity to strike quickly when already fatigued.

It makes great neural demands of the sprinter, but not in the same way that pure speed training does.

I think in some ways 300m+60m is harder than running a 350 (or 360), even if you emphasize the last 60m.

But this set is not as good for lactic tolerance training as 300m + 150 off 30sec rec.

I like 300m, 30sec, 4x60m with a walk back 60m between reps 2-4 inclusive.
then 250 + 3x60
then 200 + 2x60
then 150 + 1x60.

That’s a good General Preparation session. Darren Clark lived on this sort of work to clock his Aussie record 44.38 way back in 1988. He also ran 44.60sec in his fourth 400m in 28hrs at the Com Games 1990, so it didn’t kill him and it probably helped him.

It’s got quite a bit of specificity and quite a bit of volume.

I’ve always liked the idea of making neural demands of the athlete when they have loaded up with lactic, so the long rep is a depletion run which simulates the race circumstance, but then the quality quarter runner must be able to “lift” off the turn into the home straight.

The first 60 won’t be fast. I’m not looking for that. I’m looking for triple extension, relaxation and good form (arms, no hunching of shoulders) as well as a quickness of movement.

Subsequent 60s will get faster as the athlete recovers. [/quote]

Is the risk of injury not higher, introduing speed when the body is fatigued??

22

I was looking at the MJ right or wrong thread and noticed that he was training well over the 40 sec barrier, even leading up to in the same week as a 200m in which he ran “19.8”.
But also he was doing negative splits in that he would take the first portion of the run reasonably easy and then turn up the heat for the remainder which took him through the 40 sec barrier, does anyone know what energy system this would attack greatest and how this would prepare a 400 athlete

23

he was doing negative splits in that he would take the first portion of the run reasonably easy and then turn up the heat for the remainder which took him through the 40 sec barrier

a-j, if he took it easy just to get through the 40m sec barrier and normally would have been below it for this distance, this couldn’t cause the same lactic production or require the same energy systems by 40 seconds as normal, e.g. running at 70% for 200m and then 95% for the last 200m is not as hard as 400m at 90-95% and doesn’t cause the same lactic build or energy system requirements.

Was this effort not related to his rest periods?

24

is the drive phase in the 200 and the 400 identical in length to the 100? If not, how does each drive phase differ.

25

I don’t think so because you need to come up a bit quicker to avoid running out of your lane.

26

KitKat, if you could help me out with this it would be great.

The 300m down w/60’s seems great and I’ve dome similar things with athletes, but would you consider thisan appropriate session for junior athletes? At what age did Darren start doing sessions such as this? It would seem best for an athletes with atrainign age of at least 6 if not 7.

Thanks

27

Originally posted by DMA
Didn’t or doesn’t John Smith get his athletes to do 350’s so they simulate 400m without getting to much lactic

The idea was to build up high levels of lactic - hence the move from 300m to 350m.

28

John Smith made the move from 300 to 350 after talking to Clyde Hart. This has been the later coach’s primary distance for race modelling for 25+ years.

If you talk to Smith you will find that he is great at adapting what he learns from others into his program. He is very sharp in this regard.

I haven’t spoke to John regarding training in some time (@10 years). I’d be curious what he may have changed in the interim, though the 10x600m thread makes me think, that he hasn’t altered very much.

29

Originally posted by AthleticsCoach
[b]KitKat, if you could help me out with this it would be great.

The 300m down w/60’s seems great and I’ve dome similar things with athletes, but would you consider thisan appropriate session for junior athletes? At what age did Darren start doing sessions such as this? It would seem best for an athletes with atrainign age of at least 6 if not 7.

Thanks [/b]

AthleticsCoach,

I used the general concept will kids in their first year in the sport, although they were already teenagers.

But of course I modified. The session described would have been on their program maybe in their third or fourth year with me.

However with rookies I did go to distance from 120m out to 200m, 2mins recovery, followed by 60m, then walkback, 50m (walkback), 40 (walkback), 30 (walkback) and 20m. All done with rolling start so as to reduce CNS stress.

You could see how they react. Maybe one set for a relative novice could be 120m at max effort, 2mins rest, then 60m, 40m and 20m with walkbacks. Sometimes I’d string together 120, jog remainder of the lap, then 30sec rest, then 60m, 40m, 20m. X two or three sets. It allows them to run fast, which is what kids want to do, but it gets a little bit of stress recovery into them without turning them into middle distance runners. Whatever other elements people ascribe to the 400m, it remains a sprint.

Someone previously wondered whether this sort of set would bring on injuries. You would think it would, but in all the years I coached like this I had only two incidents - only with Darren and both times they were cramps: once in a race and once in a 150m tempo session! So go figure.

I can only speculate on the science but I do believe that it’s rarely a single thing which causes injury. It’s usually a combination of issues such as program design, overuse, poor mechanics, poor rehab, poor warmup…we all know the routine.

rgds
kitkat
:slight_smile:

30

KitKat -

I have a training age of 2 years so what should I do? Also, when should I incorporate that type of work into GPP/Pre-comp/comp phases and how often? Is there a set amount of volume for those types of workouts and what do they take the place of (speed/Sp.End./SE)?

Thanks.

31

Originally posted by 400Stud
[b]KitKat -

I have a training age of 2 years so what should I do? Also, when should I incorporate that type of work into GPP/Pre-comp/comp phases and how often? Is there a set amount of volume for those types of workouts and what do they take the place of (speed/Sp.End./SE)?

Thanks. [/b]

Hello 400Stud,

I’m assuming your biological age is greater than your “training age”, either that or you are a gifted child indeed. So assuming you are at least a teenager, this sort of work is fine for you. The issue with this is as with anything else you do: volume, intensity and phasing.

All those will be determined by you as you feel capable.

Volume can be no more than twice a week and preferably once, definitely not back-to-back days.

Volume can be no more than four sets, probably no less than three.

Intensity of the set can be varied by the length and speed of the first (depletion) run. The distance can vary from 120m to 300m and I’m sure you could run it out to 350m but I never went past 320m. The recovery time between the depletion run and the first short rep can be 30sec to 5mins, depending on the length and intensity used for the depletion run, or the training age of the individual runner. The longer the rest, the easier you make it on the athlete.

We typically operated on two basic sessions, as follows: 300m /30sec/ 4x60m with walkbacks, then 10-20min rest, and 250m /30sec/ 3x60m with…etc, then
200m /30sec/ 2x60m with…etc, then
150m /30sec/ 1x60m with…etc, that ends the session.

alternatively:
300m /30sec/ 60m, 50m, 40m, 30m, 20m. with walkbacks… then
250m /30sec/ 60m, 50m, 40m, 30m, 20m …etc, then
200m /30sec/ 60m, 50m, 40m, 30m, 20m … that ends the session.

However you can drop every second backup run to make it easier.
You can also backoff the pace on the longest depletion run (first rep of first set) or you can drop off the pace on all of the depletion runs.

On particularly windy days, or in the General Preparation Phase (particularly first six week cycle) we never pushed the pace of the depletion rep, prefering to tempo the longer rep and set up the short reps with a tailwind.

Everything is really up to your own creativity. If you follow the basic rules of training, you should progress and you probably won’t get injured.

As per the pre-comp and in-comp phases, yes we used this type of session. We just intensified the speed of all reps.

As I said, this type of work can have a role to play in conjunction with many other sets and session types.
Somewhere on another thread, perhaps in the archives by now on a 400m discussion, I outlined the essential structure and ideas behind my kind of 400m programme if it’s of interest, which it should be because you should know the reasoning behind every rep/set you run. And you should be able to monitor progress and predict and/alter the peak as needs, which is a function of programme theory. The programme construction is central to any success. Once that model is correct - it follows a progressive and safe development of all threads of performance (the five S’s) - you can slot your favourite reps/sets in wherever you feel is appropriate.

kitkat
:slight_smile:

32

Thanks kitkat. That was very well explained and I understand better now. I will make sure to incorporate those into my training program as I think that type of gut work is key to 400m success. No balls, no glory, right?

By the way, I’m 17 so no I’m not a gifted child (I wish).

Thanks again.

33

kitkat,
great post… i will use it for future reference.

So you did not push the place of the depleation rep? so what % would you say it should be run at?
And what % should the short back up runs be run at?

34

Originally posted by QUIKAZHELL
[b]kitkat,
great post… i will use it for future reference.

So you did not push the place of the depleation rep? so what % would you say it should be run at?
And what % should the short back up runs be run at? [/b]

Hi Quik,

I’m a hopeless mathemetician so couldn’t really declare a percentage for anything. I would just tell an athlete to run as they feel able on that day.

Sometimes when Darren Clark was in 32sec shape for 300m, he would run only 35sec if the wind conditions were too difficult or he didn’t want to decimate himself.

Other times he would try to run the depletion rep like a time-trial, with a long period of concentration/visualization.

Once he took more than 35mins to prepare mentally for the first rep of the day - and ran 31.66 (hand) around two bends! But then I insisted he took a 20min rest before he ran another rep and then ended the session very prematurely. It sorted of stuffed up the set/session actually. I’d have preferred he had saved that effort for race day.

But on the other hand, although he forced a change in the program that day, he was doing what intuitively he felt he must do.

At the end of the day we were both still moving in the right direction and I have always supported the athlete’s instincts, even though on occasion I’ve had my doubts.

So the message is, run the way you feel. But do so within the bigger picture of what you want out of the session and how appropriate the effort is to the timing of your season.

-kk

35

great thread… i like the set-up.

36

Thanks for all the responses Kit Kat.

As I remember it from the past 400m thread, the workouts that you have outlined were inserted after the completing the 2 week phase of hill workouts. Did the rest of the week’s structure remain as in that phase?

Also, at what point did you begin to insert the speed sessions, and when did the 300-250-200-150 + 60’s sessions give way to lower volume SE sessions?

Thanks,
AthleticsCoach

37

[QUOTE]Originally posted by AthleticsCoach
[b]Thanks for all the responses Kit Kat.

Q:As I remember it from the past 400m thread, the workouts that you have outlined were inserted after the completing the 2 week phase of hill workouts. Did the rest of the week’s structure remain as in that phase?

ANSWER: Pretty much yes, although hopefully you don;t get the impression the first two weeks was all hills. But that’s definitely where the hills were sited. The structure of each week remained basically the same all year: ie, the rhythm of one day rest, then two days’ training, then one day rest, then three days training. The rest day always preceded the pure speed (or the most taxing session of) training.

Q:Also, at what point did you begin to insert the speed sessions, and when did the 300-250-200-150 + 60’s sessions give way to lower volume SE sessions?

ANSWER: During the pre-competition phase which followed two cycles, each of six weeks, of the general prep block prior to the domestic season. Ditto prior to the European season, although this followed only one block of the general prep training.
The pre-comp phase emphasised development of the middle part of the 400m race - from 100m out to 300m. The middle 200m.

I recognised one of the weaknesses in my program was that at the end of the general prep phase, athletes could run strongly to the finish line, and they could also get off the blocks pretty quickly. But they tended to float the middle 200m. The running was not very explosive through that zone. Athletes were kind of stuck in a soft action, a rhythm not appropriate to racing. Which is understandable.

The next month emphasised a session of 250m, 180m, 160m, 140m, 120m all with a 10min recovery. I found that this session had to be accomplished at least four times over a four week period before I could let athletes race without danger of injury.

These runs were sited every Wednesday, following rest on Tuesday. They were followed in the afternoon by a weightlifting session, usually of only about an hour, with boxing circuit to follow as a form almost of upperbody plyometrics, lactic tolerance and this (boxing against pads, heavybag etc) also seemed to develop an overall tolerance to carrying the sort of protein/tissue damage runners normally get only from striking the track.

I don’t know the science of it, but I know my 400m people raced better when they boxed in training than after a period when they did not. Anyone who can provide a rational explanation for the benefits of this work to 400m sprinters please post. I remain intrigued.

Refering to the 250-120 ladder, during the in-season at various times if I felt we needed some toughening through the middle of the race, we would often slot in a session of 250, 180, 140. This would be done with probably no less effort than the extended set, but once the athlete started to sharpen up a bit I tended to reduce the volume as their intensity rose - just as a safety precaution really.

AthleticsCoach, I hope this doesn’t cause more confusion than it solves

-kk.

38

i try to run fast for 200m 95% then just take it easy for 50-70 meters then just try to go faster again. work for me

39

hey kitkat, you mentioned a boxing circuit earlier on there - i was thinking of doing the same thing as part of my gpp only following intensive tempo. im doing a 200m progression (starting from 10x200 @ 30secs, 3mins recovery working down to 4x200 @ 24 before going to 7 again and working down on 2mins) for that and my coach (Clayton Kearney - same as who Henry Mitchell used to train with - i understand you know Clayton?) recommended that i try and put some boxing in after the session - after a solid recovery of course. i’m up to 6x200s @ 26secs at the moment which is just starting to get a little hairy lactic-wise but with the 3 mins not too bad.

As a general rule Clayts recommended 5 sets of 2mins alternating positions (up down, uppercuts etc) but I was interested to know what you did with your athletes as a possible reference point?

We do our intensive tempo sessions on grass as my training partner and myself have had issues with ‘shin splints’ in the past, so the boxing will be done on grass also, about 20-30mins after the running session. I’m a 400m/200m runner of training age 3.5, he is a rugby player (not sure about training age, but probably ‘older’ than me)

40

That all sounds good. The intensity of the punching will dictate the duration and recovery. But these are all factors to be manipulated at different stages of the year as your fitness progresses.

I liked the “boxing” because I think it helped develop upperbody power-endurance. It was a bit of a bridge from the weightsroom to the track.

It also, I thought (and recently had a scientist confirm), helped evolve the blood chemistry in a way which was similar to what was happening during 400m running training - but in the case of boxing it gave the legs a rest from the striking on the track.

So there was generation and tolerance of “lactic acid” going on, but there was also generation and tolerance of protein breakdown which is a whole other thing again.

There is a deal of protein damage in sprinting and boxing and it seems that this is much less a factor in some other high order aerobic activities such as cycling (although I’m sure if you cranked up the resistance you’d mess up your legs, but then again by opting for some cross-training that’s what a sprinter should be trying to avoid since so much of the real sprint performance involves pounds the legs).