400m training

[pindaman]

@volle

So basically you follow his setup with 2 “hard days” 1 rest and then 3 “hard days” 1 day rest? But with lower volume on the hard days?
What about top end speed development?
It still works without training acceleration and 60meters?
Since you improved your 100/200 and 400m I guess top end speed is developed even without “pure speed” training!?

I really like to work in relative speed work.
so i do some acceleration work in warmup. ex 4x60 on grass with 20m acc and then 40 relaxed getting into upright position.
in the 150’s you have to put some extra work in acceleration and then ‘rolling out’ the run. So put the most effort in acceleration to get to the right speed asap and then relaxed running until the finish is working for speed.

my plan was e.g week 1
mo. 2x4x150, but in warmup some accelerations, because when i did just do a ‘slow’ warmup my fist set of 150’s was way too slow.
th. more of a intensivetempo workout on grass, because i had no hills. 3x diagonal field run and turn when finished. so it was 300 split run (3x100 on grass with +/- 5 sec breaks)+ simple weight. i only did 3 things. bench/squat/clean. i’d pick 3 excesizes for a weight session and if i had the time i would do some extra core work.
wed. rest or extensive tempo/ easy pool work
th 2x2x200 2’-4’ so more easy session than the 5x200 2’ . +weight also som eacc work in warmup
fri. int tempo on grass:if i felt bad i did tempo and switch fr/sat workout
sat: same as wednesday

The basis is kk workout 2d-r-3d-r, but his volumes are reall hard, at least for me they were. So i had to modify it to my needs. Just try to get the stimulus the that the plan is aimimng at.

so for the 400 specific work you will need speed. running 5x200 in 32 is for nothing in my view. better to get started with 2x2x200 with added rest but rum them in 27, and building it up to 5x200 when you get stronger.
Take the speed as a basis.My experiance is that works very good.

for me it took about 2 seasons to be able to work the volumes suggested in the plan. Adjust the plan to what you can do but again, work from speed. so if you want to run 50… try to do your workout in this speed range. so your 200’s have to be in 26. And trust me you get used to that relative quick first you die @ 2x2x200, 5 weeks later you do 4x200@26 with relative ease.

[ESTI]

@pindaman

I really like to work in relative speed work.
so i do some acceleration work in warmup. ex 4x60 on grass with 20m acc and then 40 relaxed getting into upright position.
in the 150’s you have to put some extra work in acceleration and then ‘rolling out’ the run. So put the most effort in acceleration to get to the right speed asap and then relaxed running until the finish is working for speed.

my plan was e.g week 1
mo. 2x4x150, but in warmup some accelerations, because when i did just do a ‘slow’ warmup my fist set of 150’s was way too slow.
th. more of a intensivetempo workout on grass, because i had no hills. 3x diagonal field run and turn when finished. so it was 300 split run (3x100 on grass with +/- 5 sec breaks)+ simple weight. i only did 3 things. bench/squat/clean. i’d pick 3 excesizes for a weight session and if i had the time i would do some extra core work.
wed. rest or extensive tempo/ easy pool work
th 2x2x200 2’-4’ so more easy session than the 5x200 2’ . +weight also som eacc work in warmup
fri. int tempo on grass:if i felt bad i did tempo and switch fr/sat workout
sat: same as wednesday

The basis is kk workout 2d-r-3d-r, but his volumes are reall hard, at least for me they were. So i had to modify it to my needs. Just try to get the stimulus the that the plan is aimimng at.

so for the 400 specific work you will need speed. running 5x200 in 32 is for nothing in my view. better to get started with 2x2x200 with added rest but rum them in 27, and building it up to 5x200 when you get stronger.
Take the speed as a basis.My experiance is that works very good.

for me it took about 2 seasons to be able to work the volumes suggested in the plan. Adjust the plan to what you can do but again, work from speed. so if you want to run 50… try to do your workout in this speed range. so your 200’s have to be in 26. And trust me you get used to that relative quick first you die @ 2x2x200, 5 weeks later you do 4x200@26 with relative ease.

Those look to be very good modifications while keeping the theme.

[pindaman]

@ESTI

Those look to be very good modifications while keeping the theme.

thank you esti

[volle]

@pindaman

I really like to work in relative speed work.
so i do some acceleration work in warmup. ex 4x60 on grass with 20m acc and then 40 relaxed getting into upright position.
in the 150’s you have to put some extra work in acceleration and then ‘rolling out’ the run. So put the most effort in acceleration to get to the right speed asap and then relaxed running until the finish is working for speed.

my plan was e.g week 1
mo. 2x4x150, but in warmup some accelerations, because when i did just do a ‘slow’ warmup my fist set of 150’s was way too slow.
th. more of a intensivetempo workout on grass, because i had no hills. 3x diagonal field run and turn when finished. so it was 300 split run (3x100 on grass with +/- 5 sec breaks)+ simple weight. i only did 3 things. bench/squat/clean. i’d pick 3 excesizes for a weight session and if i had the time i would do some extra core work.
wed. rest or extensive tempo/ easy pool work
th 2x2x200 2’-4’ so more easy session than the 5x200 2’ . +weight also som eacc work in warmup
fri. int tempo on grass:if i felt bad i did tempo and switch fr/sat workout
sat: same as wednesday

The basis is kk workout 2d-r-3d-r, but his volumes are reall hard, at least for me they were. So i had to modify it to my needs. Just try to get the stimulus the that the plan is aimimng at.

so for the 400 specific work you will need speed. running 5x200 in 32 is for nothing in my view. better to get started with 2x2x200 with added rest but rum them in 27, and building it up to 5x200 when you get stronger.
Take the speed as a basis.My experiance is that works very good.

for me it took about 2 seasons to be able to work the volumes suggested in the plan. Adjust the plan to what you can do but again, work from speed. so if you want to run 50… try to do your workout in this speed range. so your 200’s have to be in 26. And trust me you get used to that relative quick first you die @ 2x2x200, 5 weeks later you do 4x200@26 with relative ease.

Thanks alot for your detailed information.

Can I ask you what your pbs are?
Are you a speed type or more endurance type?
At what speed did you run the 150`s?
On thuesday your volume was only 300m?
What did you do for extensive tempo on wednesday/saturday?
What did you do for fridays intensive tempo?

Thanks!

[ollie]

@DMA

Agree with everyone else.

The basic program I use, is my version of KK’s, it needs modification sometimes but depends on the athlete. The important sessions are after rest days.

Day 1 - Speed
Day 2 - Endurance (generally extensive tempo)
Day 3 - Off
Day 4 - Specific Speed
Day 5 - easy Endurance (easier than the Day 2)
Day 6 - Hills (work up to Overtime)
Day 7 - Off

For instance in winter I will use Day 1 for speed and specific speed, as it is difficult for my athletes and myself to get together 3 times a week (most are Uni students)

DMA,

I’ve been working with a 400 meter athlete and the set-up I came up with is the same as yours. A couple things I’ve been thinking about are the use of Speed Endurance work ( 80-150m ) and also Special Endurance I split reps ( 150-300m ). Any thoughts on how you might go about this or how it would impact your training set-up from a progression standpoint?

[pindaman]

pb
100-200-400h
10.80 -21.92 -51.08 my 200 pb was run 1 hr after a pb 400 og 48.30 so i was pretty tired already.

I think i am more of a speed type.
the thuesday was 2-3x the 300m this day is a relative endurance day.
speed 150’s depending on your 400 target times. for 49/48 i started low 19, going down to 18 low during the season. add about 1 sec if run on normal shoes instead of spikes
for extensive work just be creative. i did tempo circuits+ sometimes added 20situp/20 pushup after runs. Sometimes with bad weather i did some body weight circuits look in the allan wells thread for an example workout or even just an easy bike workout so i could rest the legs, it was dependng on how i felt.extensive work could als be replaced by total rest or only some stretching routine when i was very tired. Main focus for training were the monday and thirsday. the other days i took more easy. Look at those days as supporting for the main days. As you get fitter your times be faster, and/or youll feel you can add more effort in the friday workout after a hard thirsday workout. Let it come natural, dont force it dont be afraid to do too little. THats not a problem when your quality is good(do the runs fast enough on monday and thirsday).

[DMA]

@ollie

DMA,

I’ve been working with a 400 meter athlete and the set-up I came up with is the same as yours. A couple things I’ve been thinking about are the use of Speed Endurance work ( 80-150m ) and also Special Endurance I split reps ( 150-300m ). Any thoughts on how you might go about this or how it would impact your training set-up from a progression standpoint?

Ollie as we are moving into the early start of our season, season locally is 6 months, and daylight savings starts as well. The weekly sessions will be something like this

Day 1 - Speed
Day 2 - Endurance (generally extensive tempo)
Day 3 - Off
Day 4 - Speed or Special Endurance
Day 5 - easy Endurance (easier than the Day 2)
Day 6 - Special or Speed Endurance - depends on what local races are on
Day 7 - Off

I will use some of the local races as special endurance sessions, I am still working out these at the moment.

[volle]

@pindaman

pb
100-200-400h
10.80 -21.92 -51.08 my 200 pb was run 1 hr after a pb 400 og 48.30 so i was pretty tired already.

I think i am more of a speed type.
the thuesday was 2-3x the 300m this day is a relative endurance day.
speed 150’s depending on your 400 target times. for 49/48 i started low 19, going down to 18 low during the season. add about 1 sec if run on normal shoes instead of spikes
for extensive work just be creative. i did tempo circuits+ sometimes added 20situp/20 pushup after runs. Sometimes with bad weather i did some body weight circuits look in the allan wells thread for an example workout or even just an easy bike workout so i could rest the legs, it was dependng on how i felt.extensive work could als be replaced by total rest or only some stretching routine when i was very tired. Main focus for training were the monday and thirsday. the other days i took more easy. Look at those days as supporting for the main days. As you get fitter your times be faster, and/or youll feel you can add more effort in the friday workout after a hard thirsday workout. Let it come natural, dont force it dont be afraid to do too little. THats not a problem when your quality is good(do the runs fast enough on monday and thirsday).

Thanks.
What did you do for your fridays intensive workout?
Didnt you get very tired and injury prone doing 2 hard days back to back?
Did you change sessions from one week to another?

[pindaman]

there are basically only 2 real hard days. the second day (after a hard day)was more about what you can handle. so if you feel pain/tired. then you run less fast. By doing so you keep injuries away.
the 2nd day its better to do less than too much.
the week shown is a sample for week 1 gpp. gpp is 6 weeks so i chanched workouts evey week with keeping the basic plan a starting point for my own plan.
you have 2 very easy days that are for recovery - easy tempo/pool work and may be massage/fysio if you can spare the time/money.

[volle]

@ollie

DMA,

Day 1 - Speed
Day 2 - Endurance (generally extensive tempo)
Day 3 - Off
Day 4 - Specific Speed
Day 5 - easy Endurance (easier than the Day 2)
Day 6 - Hills (work up to Overtime)
Day 7 - Off

Maybe I asked you before but what do you mean with specific speed? Example of a session?

[volle]

@pindaman

there are basically only 2 real hard days. the second day (after a hard day)was more about what you can handle. so if you feel pain/tired. then you run less fast. By doing so you keep injuries away.
the 2nd day its better to do less than too much.
the week shown is a sample for week 1 gpp. gpp is 6 weeks so i chanched workouts evey week with keeping the basic plan a starting point for my own plan.
you have 2 very easy days that are for recovery - easy tempo/pool work and may be massage/fysio if you can spare the time/money.

Thanks. did you train any plyos?
I cant quite understand how you only have 2 hard days when fridays are intensive tempo. If you are trying to hit some fast paces, at least for me it seems that mondays and thusdays will be hard and same with thursday and friday.
Did you train kitkats cutdows weekly?
What did you do in the transition period?
Sorry for all the questions I am just trying to understand more.

[pindaman]

@volle

Thanks. did you train any plyos?
I cant quite understand how you only have 2 hard days when fridays are intensive tempo. If you are trying to hit some fast paces, at least for me it seems that mondays and thusdays will be hard and same with thursday and friday.
Did you train kitkats cutdows weekly?
What did you do in the transition period?
Sorry for all the questions I am just trying to understand more.

monday and thirsday are most important. so that are the key days.
tuesday is less fast than monday, but will be quite fast.
friday will be hard to do fast. So you do that day as you feel so target may be hard , but if you feel sluggish after hard monday, thuesday and thirsday you go slower on friday. It is not a problem. Keep in mind these plans are made for wold class athletes with more talent and recovery options like massage than many of us.eg the likes of me, so i have to get due to what my body lets me do. I sometimes did the intensive tempo on saterday instead of friday.

Again do not be afraid you might do too little work.

[ollie]

@DMA

Ollie as we are moving into the early start of our season, season locally is 6 months, and daylight savings starts as well. The weekly sessions will be something like this

Day 1 - Speed
Day 2 - Endurance (generally extensive tempo)
Day 3 - Off
Day 4 - Speed or Special Endurance
Day 5 - easy Endurance (easier than the Day 2)
Day 6 - Special or Speed Endurance - depends on what local races are on
Day 7 - Off

I will use some of the local races as special endurance sessions, I am still working out these at the moment.

Is Day 4 Speed or Special Endurance or do you mean Speed Endurance or Special Endurance?

I’ve gone back to read Key Concepts and Charlie talked about spreading out the work in terms of high intensity days. So in this case Day 1 is the hardest followed by Day 6 and then Day 4. Have you played around with this at all?

I would have two days of tempo as well. Do you feel any need to ensure the volume is at a certain level with only two days? I imagine three days allows for a greater weekly volume but cuts into recovery.

[DMA]

Speed or Special Endurance means speed endurance or special endurance

Last year I played around with the weekly schedule as above, and although not ideal - it seemed to work okay. Having it is a spd end or spec end session, allows me to be more flexible.

[volle]

@pindaman

monday and thirsday are most important. so that are the key days.
tuesday is less fast than monday, but will be quite fast.
friday will be hard to do fast. So you do that day as you feel so target may be hard , but if you feel sluggish after hard monday, thuesday and thirsday you go slower on friday. It is not a problem. Keep in mind these plans are made for wold class athletes with more talent and recovery options like massage than many of us.eg the likes of me, so i have to get due to what my body lets me do. I sometimes did the intensive tempo on saterday instead of friday.

Again do not be afraid you might do too little work.

Thanks. I am very willing to try this kind of training. But its counterintuitive I think. Thats is possible to increase speed while not really training any top speed at all.
Can I ask what your previuos pbs were before you trained kitkats program?
From what I have read to drop the 400m pb, the 200m pb also need to be dropped. And I cant see how I as a slower person (24.2 200m pb) can increase my speed with this type of training you are doing.
I tought I needed 2-3 short speed sessions every week. 30-60m full speed long rec.

[volle]

@volle

Thanks. I am very willing to try this kind of training. But its counterintuitive I think. Thats is possible to increase speed while not really training any top speed at all.
Can I ask what your previuos pbs were before you trained kitkats program?
From what I have read to drop the 400m pb, the 200m pb also need to be dropped. And I cant see how I as a slower person (24.2 200m pb) can increase my speed with this type of training you are doing.
I tought I needed 2-3 short speed sessions every week. 30-60m full speed long rec.

I have to say thanks for all the advices and recommendations and I realize that I need to READ and LEARN more myself now.
I have got many suggestions on what to read now and I will do that before asking more questions!

[genke]

Hey Volle! Thats the best thing you can do. I also recomend you getting in some basic speed planning and development information (vancouver or edmont). I think your idea of building speed starting with 60m right out in GPP its just begging for a plateu xD

[ESTI]

@ESTI

To break 50 seconds, being able to run 22.7 or faster will likely need to be achieved. In my first year with this progression, a kid opened running 23.7 and 51.3, and ended running 22.3 9 weeks later. He ran 50.x and even a 48.9x the last 3-4 weeks fairly consistently. This was with only 9 weeks of preparation and 2 meets a week (usually 1-2x200, 1-2x400).

Volle, In about 2 months, I had a kid accomplish what you are aiming for. a 1.4 second drop in 200m shows with a 5-6 week gpp, and a 4 week transition phase, you can reach levels you wish to achieve. It’s very possible to do and I did it in a short time. T Slow took his guy from 48 seconds to sub 47 in 13 weeks and saw over 0.5 improvement in his 200m in that season.

[volle]

@ESTI

Volle, In about 2 months, I had a kid accomplish what you are aiming for. a 1.4 second drop in 200m shows with a 5-6 week gpp, and a 4 week transition phase, you can reach levels you wish to achieve. It’s very possible to do and I did it in a short time. T Slow took his guy from 48 seconds to sub 47 in 13 weeks and saw over 0.5 improvement in his 200m in that season.

Thanks that sounds promising.
I will follow kitkats program. Only change I will do is to lower the volume abit.
Is there a sample week from kitkats training in the competition period? I can only remember seeing GPP and transition period.

[T-Slow]

As advised previously, read the Lactate Ebook, ESTI’s journal, and my journals. It’s all there. The reason I am repeating myself is if you actually sit down and take the time to read these resources, they will give you:

1. The theoretical framework and program laid out for a 400m elite athlete (Lactate Ebook)
2. An adapted KitKat program for high school athletes (ESTI’s journal)
3. An adapted KitKat program for a masters athlete (T-Slow’s journal with notes from ESTI)
   30 An adapted KitKat program for a 400m athlete aspiring to be national class (another T-Slow journal)

By reading the above, ideally a few times each- you will be able to put together a program for yourself. Sample weeks will be of ZERO use if you don’t understand the above, so please stop asking and get to work!