Any thoughts on optimal 400m training while looking to increase 200m speed?
The Lactate Threshold Training thread is a gold mine for 400m training. KitKat is a genius. However, his program may or may not assume that speed is mostly in place. From what I have read, Marita Koch went S-L and never went over 350m per rep. She ran soem very fast 60m times during the year as she progressed out to 400m. However, a training program for you will depend on your age, training age, past training, current strengths, weaknesses, and times. If you are young, it is highly recommended that you do not extend out to 400m until after age 19-20 I believe. Check the Lactate Threshold Training thread for much, much more.
Thanks for the response. I am 29 years old with a PR of 45.93 but not run faster than 21.9 in my open 200. So apparently my strength is and have always been ahead of my speed. I finally believe it or not after 14 years of running found a great strength and conditioning coach, who has helped me make great strides in my strength. I feel the difference in my turnover already but now am looking for more technical expertise and workout development
The Lactate Threshold thread is an excellent resource, with your speed you MAY readily adapt to KitKat’s program, btw, both KitKat’s program and the great Tommie Smith never went further than 320m in training on the track, KitKat has said that if he had it to do over, he probably would have gone out to 350m, read over that thread, it’s full of great training information.
That is a great 400time considering your 200pr.
I’m currently working with a kid who has run 46.45 and has a 200 pr of 22.0. I’m not sure if more speed development is needed, or if the strength/speedendurance can still be improved.
I would say both of your 400 times are very good considering your 200 PRs and perhaps, as tr400 has stated, speed development is a thread of training that should be more emphasized.
If I recall correctly, KitKat’s 44.3 guy ran 10.5 and 20.x PRs. It is also my understanding that KitKat also takes more stock in rolling 200s as opposed to 200s from the blocks. His 44.3 guy could run in the 19.x for a rolling 200, I believe.
How often have you run the 200 relative to your 400? I’m curious to find out if you are simply under-raced at that distance compared to your 400. I’m thinking that you might be faster than 21.9 but have not tested it often enough nor very recently?
If I understand correctly - it’s not your 200 PR that is 21.9, but your OPENING 200 in the 400?? Quite a difference!
You can do a RESEARCH of the Lactate Threshold thread - you will definitely get AWESOME hints and knowledge there.
From my point of view - I have two 400m athletes (male), totally different regarding strengths and weaknesses. The one, running 21.5 for his first 200m, PR of 45.3 in the 400. (More speed orientated athlete.) The other - 22.0 for his first 200, 46.3 in the 400. (Endurance stronger than speed.) (Both will improve tremendously in the next season - based on their base training now!) BUT - I won’t change their first 200’s! I am working on the second 200’s - if that can improve, both will be able to improve their PR’s.
Based on this - I would recommend that you work on your speed, speed endurance and special endurance, but be careful NOT to try to run the first 200 TOO fast at this stage. Work on the LAST 200 firstly in your training. (I have learned this from Kitkat!!) When the difference between your first and last 200 is closer to 1.5", you can attempt a faster first 200.
Good luck with the training!
Thanks to those who offered kind words and more importantly, I’m happy you were able to take a few things of use from our discussions over at the lactate threshhold thread.
I would add that given I advocate a concurrent development program, it is completely within the scope of the structure to train for speed (S2L) on the freshest day(s) and endurance on back-up days. I think from what we now know of both Jamaican training camps, concurrent “theory” is in place and works well beyond any doubt. In fact, I think it’s beyond speculation (at least since I got my results in Seoul) that concurrent model is no longer just “a theory”.
My guess is that most people use some form of concurrent training in their program weather they know it or not.
The differences probably come into play when we talk about % with regards to the different elements of a training program.
And/or their timing!
I agree: the issue then is how they construct their program. I’ve seen so many disasters, so many illogical patterns, so few with real sequential order leading to progress and some sort of positive predictable outcome.
Program theory is the driest thing we talk about on this forum, but the most important IMO.
Thanks to everyone for you responses as they are very helpful. I will definitely read the lactate threshold thread. Any hints on where to find it would be helpful. As far as my open 200 goes yes my PR is 21.93. I dont run the 200 much but i probably could run faster if i ran it more. I have always trained focusing on strength as i run at 1:00m 500 and can run 1:54 for 800m. I just know in order for me to run to my capabilities and with the best 400 runners in the world i need a faster 200 PR. Any thoughts?
I agree 100%.
I think one of the problems is this. Nowadays It is easier to get information on 400 programs. C Harts stuff is on the web. Your stuff is on the web. Guthries training is on the web. as well as snippets from several other past and present 400 runners and coaches. So now we have all this info. Most of it pretty sensible stuff. Yet none of these programs was specifacally tailored for the athlete we are coaching. So now we must sift through everything and try and construct a program that is optimal for our athlete. We must consider age,training age facilities or lack thereof. Injury history,weather ( a big issue in the north east)
and most importantly what does the athlete respond best to.
This can differ from athlete to athlete… I have found this to be a major issue. The more people you coach the more differing factors in the individual come into play.
This does not even begin to adress which program is best. LtoS ,Sto L ,concurrent.or something different.
Without knowing your history it is hard to comment. But yes you probably need to run at least 21.30 to go 45 flat or thereabouts.
Of course you need to keep in mind that at some point your genetics is going to put a limit on just how much faster you can get. Weather you have hit your full potential or not remains to be seen.