You are right about skinning cats - and wolves? But this conversation has been had elsewhere on this site. History is full of examples of 800-400 types, notably Alberto Juantorena who won both titles at the Olympics (Montreal?). It’s true, you don’t need smoking speed over short distances. What you need is the ability to sustain smoking speed for a long time. So even if it takes you 100m running to build up to a flying 10-flat 100 for the backend of a 200m, that’ll give you the sort of speed which is important to 400m elite performance. Not that I would advocate running 10flat down the backstraight in a 400m of course. Aussiue Mark Garner did that at the 1991 Tokyo world titles - yes, 10.00sec electronic - and he paid for it in the home straight. But bound up with rolling speed maintenance are issues of mechanics efficiency, relaxation, rhythm and power.
By the way, I think that extremely long post a couple of notches earlier was a download of earlier discussion relating to the 400m so as to kickstart a target 400m thread. It’s helpful not to have to go to archives all the time.
I have been training mainly with 300’s and 200’s in practice latley… We do everything with flying starts, i.e. 1x300, followed by 2x200, full recovery but we do them fast, usually on Monday and Wednesdays; or we will do 1x200, 1x300, and 1x200, or 2x200, 1x300… In that general area. It seems like I have the speed to run a great 300m (I have run 36.8 in practice so far this year, we have many others on the team who have run under 38) and I consistentley run low 23’s-high 22’s now for 200m in practice. When it comes to the meets though all we can run are 52’s on the relays, what is going on? We have never ran over 320m in practice for a rep, should we be doing more long running work? Like 500’s? I can post a sample training week if that would help… I’m just frustrated because I feel like I should be running faster than a 52 right now… Maybe I’m impatient though…
because you say that all timings are flying starts, are you sure that these good times are also performed from the blocks?
also, do you know your splits during the 52s? they might be faster than what they should be, especially if you feel you are dying in the home straight -well, you are dying anyway
[QUOTE=joesdad]yeah, there was a kid here in Hawaii from a big school who won the sprints in states as a soph…placed top 3 in all sprints including relays…
he never got better… but maybe worse… last year Joe in the 200 and 400 put him to shame… he was supposed to make the points…the kid went out a senior, got no places in all 4 or 5 events… too many - his coach worked him like that every week meet after meet 4-5 events.
I have to ring in on this one.
I know the kid from Hawaii.Nick
Couple of things, first he was not trained correctly, but I dont think Joe was either. I mean I think Joe is a great talent out of Hawaii, but if I am not mistaken he doesnt use blocks?
Joesdad is doing a great job of trying to get great info to his son so he can get better.
And to the coaches defense, Joe was just better esp. in the 200. Its no contest. In the 400 I would have bet on Nick if he trained correctly. We raced in practice one day and he ran a 49.7 like in Jan.or Feb. He had the potential to go low 48’s his senior year and break the state record.
And I think the ref. for more than one way to skin a cat is appro.
The state record in the 400 is 48.66 and this kid never ran under 11.1 or 22.0.
My own experience I ran my best 400without ever doing special end. runs longer than 300.
I like doing 2x200 with 1 minute rest did 23.3/24.0 and ran a 47.8 time trial.
Hey I actually beat Bryan Clay in the 400 a few years back. 48.1 to 49.4.
Anyway the 400 is a beast that is so ind. it takes a while for each athlete to learn his way.
As far as those flying 300’s do standings so you dont get to excited or understand that a flying 36.8 equal a 52 maybe a 51.
And I have had similar experiences with pract. times and reality. Usually, I add .45-.55 to a standing 100 and it works, Imean it never failed for like 5 years,but last year it failed. I mean I had inj. but it just didnt come together.
Bottom line, race and you will find out how fast you are. Train smart, get good info. Buy CF’s books.
Aloha
“Couple of things, first he was not trained correctly, but I dont think Joe was either.”
Yeah, I was taking a chance talking about another coach, and even our own, but hey; if it don’t cut it what can you say…
What a pleasant surprise to get on to this forum and get an education (at your fingertips).
I went from one coach I couldnt count on to another last year… they might have some redeeming elements, but hey, in sprints, and as a kid, its hard enough to get it together, let alone not have good coaching.
Joe went into this season in pretty good condition and got hammered (wow a pun) by a badly designed workout! I was there. I coulda woulda told Joe; just back off, but that woulda been hard for him with his peers there. I coulda woulda checked his tone the next practice day and kept him off more hi intensity where he got hamstring strain.
I am learning what I can as we go along… one season is not enough.
I dont like Joe doing more than 350 spe end either.
If and when Joe gets to states this year (barring re-inj) he will be using the medium block start.
I would self time the 100 meters standing. I would run 10.4 add .45 for a 10.85 electric. It goes between 10.85 and 10.95.
I have been doing it for 5 years.
aloha
I was thinking about the states this year.
I think that Joe is in a class of his own.
I remeber him coming to Punahou early in the year last year and ran 11.18 electric.
Then his 21.9 and 49.6 at states.
My thinking is this. He can win all three not being at his peak performance.
With that assumption, I would say bring him back slowly. I mean even if he doesn’t begin full speed work until April I still think he can win.
Didn’t you guys come in march of last year. How long had he been training before you guys come over.
I would plan on bringing him back slow and maybe April 2 on Maui. I cant go.
Just some thoughts.
aloha
mahalo Kelsey,
last year we were training about 4-6 weeks with the team, 3 practice meets before we went to Maui (10.99 fat), then we went to Punahou the next week. His GPP last year was varsity football. (this year we ran tempos and some speed for GPP)
that’s what I am worrying over; how to bring him back.
Consider this if you will:
Should we start all over with 75% tempo and 25% speed work and build a short to long program?
He can jog and stride about 60% about a 1/2 hr. total before he gets some light pain in ham.
We have 3 full weeks before Maui.
The soonest we can possibly be anywhere near ready to risk a full speed sprint would be Maui, 4/1 trials, 4/2 finals. That is 2 days of racing; risky?
(the next oportunity would be the next week, 4/9, kif meet, with meets 4/15, 4/22. 4/29 after. then nothing til states 5/12 ).
That is still 4 meets to get some racing in before states and maybe safer than going to maui and risk pulling ham again.
We came in with 4-5 months of moderate GPP, no weights though.
His coach is pretty much willing to let him dictate his own pace at this point.
thanks for reminding me that if we are cautious we can still get in states and do well.
yeah, eveyone seems to think thats weird. But I have been doing it for so long like 5 years plus and then racing I have a good gauge as to how I will do in a real race. I know that a self-timed standing 100 meters in 10.5 will probably equal a 10.9 to 11.0 eletronic 100.
aloha
I heard about the 10.99 in Maui , I heard it was windy as Maui always is. it is difficult to run a good time at Punahou. I think he went 11.1 electric. I think Joe has a great chance to run a legit 10.9 maybe 10.8 Is states at Mililani? THere is a slight tail wind there. About +1.3-1.7. so it should be legal. If states in at Kamehameha forget it, headwind -1.5 or more.
I would def. go short to long unless that is not the protocol on coming back from a ham inj. I am not familiar with CF’s protocol on inj come back.
CF says 4-6 races before a big meet.
Like I said, he can win at 85-90%, so I would bring him back slow. Skip maui unless he’s ready for sure. You can always pull him out of the finals, go for the trials run 90% and then pull out to the trials if there a problem.
I will be at a meet in 4/2 at UH. I need one more myself before 4/30. There are no meets on Oahu after 4/2.
in a lot of the meets i race in i have a 400m heat and final on the same day often only like 2 hours apart. do you think you can simulate this in a session to improve your ability to back up in the final, i.e. the session discussed before 3X400m rest 20min. most athletes would have done the majority of thier recovery and removed lactic acid after the first 20mins of rest anyway.
Yes, correct . . . because it was championship results that interested the athletes - and me.
But the multi-set composition of most training days - especially going forward deep into the race phase where the times of some reps are even more specific to racing - will obviously simulate tournament-style demands or the demands of racing two or three times in a two-hour period.
Having said that, you understand that the quality of the peak is dependent largely on the quality of the base (GPP).
Hi I am training for the 400m hurdles I was wondering if you could comment on my programme.
Monday - speed work i.e. 4x30m from blocks, 2 sets of 3 easy fast easy over 60 split into 3 20m segments. weights - cleans, bench dead lift and supplementary lifts, plyos
deep tissue massage
Tuesday - tempo 3km with 1000 sit ups varied
Wed - hurdle drills, special endurance 2x 350 15 mins recov deep tissue work
Thursday - tempo 3km with 1000 sit ups varied
Friday - speed work and weights ( working on specific imbalances or weaknesses) deep tissue work
Sat - tempo with 1000 sit ups varied
Sun - rest or 2000m tempo
The key for me is to get my speed up as I feel I have lost top end speed over the last couple of years from training from a short to long perspective. my strength is very good with a 135 bench and 130 clean already this year at 81kg I do not feel I need more than 2 weights sessions per week. My biggest question is if I want to peak in June how long to I keep this going from now before I start bringing in longer hurdle work outs or longer recoveries on the special endurance days. Thanks
Hey, in reply to a previous post about the 3x400s. When i was training for 800’s, a session we used to do was just that. At most was 20min recovery. And most of that recovery was active - walk and jog. NOw, on my best, the last 400m of the set was infact a PB for me. On a grass track, they went, 51.9 - 51.2 - 50.9. As we never had access to tartan except for a couple of times a yr, grass times were all we had. The only “speed” work we did at that time as 800 runners was either the 3 x 400’s or 4 x 300’s.
Generally we found, converting from grass times to tartan, was around 2s per lap.
Buskingbob- not sure re the hurdle plan it self, but as per the longer recoveries on the special endurace days, kk goes through all that in the lactate enduracne thread. its a massive thread, but if you go through it, look for kitkat1 - he has produced olympic 400m level runners. So, if you want to know about the energy levels specific for 400m, he would be the man to ask. But, before you ask him, its a massive thread to read through, if your answer is not in there, i would be supprised. Im sure it will be there, maybe take notes as your reading through. I would imagine there is a good couple of hrs of info there. Plenty of info that will be of use for you. If you still have a Q regarding the 400, your best bet would be to ask there, as kk will be sure to reply sooner or later.
I agree. I think from my own personal experience even 10 minutes is plenty of time to fully recover between sets.
For me, I’ve been doing this similar workout (3x350m), but slower (~75%) with around 2.5 minutes rest in between. The first rep is still easy and the second is also relatively straightforward, but the last rep is the one that really separates an amazing quality workout from a terrible one.
I usually come through around 51s for the first, and 54 or 55 for the last two, although this is me hand-timing on my own watch. And after the third rep, I’m feeling pretty heavy from the lactate for a good 10 minutes or so…
But this conversation has been had elsewhere on this site. History is full of examples of 800-400 types, notably Alberto Juantorena who won both titles at the Olympics (Montreal?). It’s true, you don’t need smoking speed over short distances. What you need is the ability to sustain smoking speed for a long time. So even if it takes you 100m running to build up to a flying 10-flat 100 for the backend of a 200m, that’ll give you the sort of speed which is important to 400m elite performance. Not that I would advocate running 10flat down the backstraight in a 400m of course. Aussiue Mark Garner did that at the 1991 Tokyo world titles - yes, 10.00sec electronic - and he paid for it in the home straight. But bound up with rolling speed maintenance are issues of mechanics efficiency, relaxation, rhythm and power.