U mite want to lower the intensity on the tempo. Charlie reccomends tempo being 65% and under and nothing in the middle range. I think u’d probably also want to keep track of the total volume of speedwork per week/month as well. si your speed work done in spikes with proper recovery? Any chance you could layout how the GPP functioned?
THANKS KK! … for the encouragement and the insights.
My boy has talent, but don’t know if he has the guts to make it beyond high school sports - academic is a problem, and overall, he likes to win, but doesnt set far ranging goals… If we’re lucky he’ll get to a Jr College in Calif and work up to a good college… if he does tht effort, I know they will want him.
OK Zenonth: good idea for recovery type 65% tempo… I like having a range below 75% since that can be taxing too, with this KK type of “concurrent” schedule.
Volume of speedwork can only get a bit better since it is rock bottom with Joe bottoming out so far. We just started introducing speed and would have done more if I had seen “concurrent” sooner.
Cant remember what to aim for but probably somewhere around 400 - 800 per day, twice or three times a week.
If Joe were more hardened, he could take a bit more of KK’s sched.
We are currently looking at just 6-8 weeks or so working with me before he gets with his team and coach where they typicaly do mostly short speedwork; 3x 150s, not much over 300m…
Our gpp started in Sept. and was pretty light weight, no access to weights, but lots of consistency including general p.e. class and workouts with me after school.
If you look at our training journal you will see what we did.
I think Joe’s physical responses to the speedwork is indicative of how light- weight we have gone, but with his temperment it was the only workable way, and I would rather go a little bit light than too hard heavy at his age.
We have a dirt 400m track to work with, and we have done almost all gpp so far in flats on grass. Just started spike work this last month.
Oh yeah, just remembered, the back to back 200 at 27/29 were in flats, not spikes, thus the slow time.
Also fyi, the girls jv soccer was in the infield today , thus the fast 36.07/300.
goals: this May: 100m/10.75fat or better. 200/21.50fat. 400/48.50fat or better
With races every weekend, do people think it would be beneficial or determential to be doing workouts like Quikazhell suggested 2 X 300 on the tuesday with a race on the saturday???
What event, Stiver? Apologies if posted above.
This has been discussed on another thread some time ago (do a search on posts by Linarski). Such sessions (at ~95%) are favoured by some as they have a reduced CNS ‘cost’ allowing recvoery from the previous weekends races and also allow an easier expression of relaxed ‘free’ running - the kind of feeling you want to engrain approaching races.
I think KitKat has also touched on this mentioning the neccessity somethimes to cut-out short speed immediately prior to big races, for the same reason as above (relaxation & rythm).
All of this depends, of course, on what has come before. There must be congruency across all factors of your program throughout the year.
Good Luck!
800m’s per session is alot of speedwork at this point in the year
i beleive we’re down to 400m’s of speed work with big breaks
like on tuesday i went
3x60 1x80 with 4x30 for warmup included in that volume.
Cause there is different ways of varying the intensity and type of speed work u do rite
if i did that workout on a tuesday
the thursday could typicall be hard easy hard esay hard easy 60’s or maybe just short stuff
with sunday being a blockwork day with 30’s
But everything was progressively built to westarted with just 20’s in gpp but are volume gotup for total volume of speed work i think it peaked out around late nov early dec and now we’re lowering it but increasing the intensity(thats done by earlier in the yeard a 60 being a 30+30) hard for 30 and maintain annd now im allowed to rip the entire 60.
You;'d want to pay attention to the times of the speedwork reps cause if he’s getting tired your not helping anything by continueing cause the intensity is lowering and not helping. as well as how he rebounded the nxt day but still keeping the tepo below 65% and higher volume maybe 1800m’s
hope that helps
You make a good point Quik. I sometimes use stronger in that way myself. It’s not my fault I’ve been brainwashed. I’m a mid-distance runner and never understood why my hs coach said the xc guys(I played football and soccer) were stronger than me (couldn’t beat me in 800m, but stronger nonetheless). Then one day I walked in the weight room and there they were Power-Cleaning 315 for reps :eek:
Elars:
You had said something early about an optimal time to come through at would have been 25 seconds to finish in a 52. Well I am not sure what my split was for the 200 but I finished in a 52.
I am now even more confused. One week ago to the day I had done the 400’s OUTDOORS in 54 and hten came back to run a 52 INDOORS one week later.
Definatly steps in the right direction what caused this abrupt change and with that so early in the year should I expect to see constant improvements???
Probably because your indoor 52 was a one off, 100% run, whereas the 54’s you were running outdoors were part of a 3*400 workout.
I think you are starting to figure out the pace on the first 200.
As you race/practice throughout the season you’ll improve on that greatly.
Do you think you are in 22.80-23.00 flat 200 shape now?
Eventually you’ll want to go through in 24’s if that is the case and come through the second 200 in the 26 range.
I am starting to train for the 400 and will be following a KitKat style template.
Right now I can run 5 x 200 in the ~27 second range with 3 minutes rest between reps in COLD weather. Going to keep that workout and add the long hills and shorter accel work as well.
Good luck! I am hoping to eventually get myself in the 53-55 second range but I am 31 and out of shape LOL!
Chris
Chris
pretty good Chris! shows what a good gpp can do eh?
-if you are doing 27s now according to kk’s back end 200, you can do better than 54 now.
We are going with KitKat’s concurrent and it is a transformation from our gpp which focused mostly on tempo endurance and some strength hills and very little speed. (no weights either)
That is why it is hard to hit so many max and high intensity reps at speed endurance distances for Joe (200, 300).
But it is ok if we understand this and insert the speed end as much as we can handle as it will take that much longer to get there in precomp and early comp otherwise.
I agree with Zenonth in being careful to gauge the ability to handle the intensity and so I back off a bit and insert the tempo recovery and 2 days off as well.
I think I will have to extend the period of days for recovery sake… what do you think? this is what I mean:
day1: off
day2: speed 80s (accel/flight/relax) w/full recov.btwn. sets
day3: tempo (recovery-flush) total 1 mile
day4: power 200 reps (speed endurance) (target back end 200 of 400 pr) full recovery.
day5: off
day6: max 300(or 350), 200(250), 180(120) full recovery
day7: tempo total 1 mile
day8: long hills reps (max out)
As this is the first year for us on the CF site, and we are not as astute in most of the gpp and other periods, I think we have only gained from the association. I only wish I had started a year earlier at least. This could be Joe’s last year at home for running, if he goes on with running at all.
day1: off
day2: speed 80s (accel/flight/relax) w/full recov.btwn. sets
day3: tempo (recovery-flush) total 1 mile
day4: power 200 reps (speed endurance) (target back end 200 of 400 pr) full recovery.
day5: off
day6: max 300(or 350), 200(250), 180(120) full recovery
day7: tempo total 1 mile
day8: long hills reps (max out)
power 200’s what kinda reps?
day5 dont take off do like 1600m’s of tempo to help with the recovyer its 65% or lower so it won’t help and it icnreases blood flow and chemical exchange
same thing with day 7
day 8 why is there a need for hills?
We only did hills in gpp and for 30’s max. for general condition and hip strenghth
what does he do weight wise?
It does help to hear about moderation and how you did your progressive speed work.
Last thing I want to do is unknowingly sabotage Joe’s conditioning; that’s why I am here.
Even if we dont do it all right this year, at least we arent doing it too wrong.
Last year was his first year (as a junior) and I didnt see his coach run them into the ground so I dont imagine he will this year.
Can you tell us your pr’s and goals?
I was in shambles last year due to shotty shotty coaching i got run into the ground. thankgod im with a new coach who knows fricking everything.
I want to qualify for canada games so somewhere around or under 10.84 and 21.96(though id like to go like 21.7 or better) But ill readjust my goals as races go to see where I am, Im responding really well to speedowkr oriented training its great.
I found one huge factor this
along with proper cycling of training sessions and micro cycles
as hitting the gym hardcore and get overall way stronger
prevents burnout and really helps
this is Kit kat’s concurrent schedule: go to Sprint Training and look at Lactate Threshold Training thread; go to page 7 and read about it.
I think taking a day off can be interchanged with tempo, yeah… I will just play it by ear, see how Joe feels.
We didnt do weghts this year. He didnt have access at school this year, but did weights for soph and junior years all year, including football. This gpp was as much as I could get him to do without rebelling. He has talent and likes to use it but is not driven to be his best with good work ethic. That’s why this could be his last year n sports. I know he could be top 100 or even 50 in nation if he wanted it.
im just not a fan of long hills for “lactic work” my coach loved them and all they did was fry the nervious system, cause lactic acid after a certian lvl dmgs the body rite. So u gotta be careful. Even in 400m programs u need 2 be careful. Doing a max 350 full recoyver and then like 2x250 full recovyer would be more benefical then running hills maxout for lactic acid, it changings your running style and to much lactic acid =- no good. Did u purchase any of charlies training manuals?
Yeah I have a couple and also got hung up with paypal trying to get the gpp dvd. Never did. it’s a little too late now and will have to go intothe season with what we got… I’m only on for the off season.
We used shorter hills in the gpp regularly; it was for strength and power. I hear you telling me to watch the lactic… I do… I also read where 400 max outs can be bad, so we are staying away from that.
YOur suggested 350-250-250 sounds real good when we get to that speed endurance. We would not do more than 3x 200m hills for now. I think it will give him a strength and speed edge come comp.
I hear you… be careful… thanks.
Yeah one of the biggest things i learned, espically from the the seminar, was speed is the crucial thing to develop u can add w/e form of endurance in easilylater on but speed is harder. much much harder.
epsically with young athletes u gotta pay atttention to cns burnout and strenght(weight) development u dont want to fry there system i got fried 3 straight years cause my coach at the time was all about volume
never agian
yeah, there was a kid here in Hawaii from a big school who won the sprints in states as a soph…placed top 3 in all sprints including relays…
he never got better… but maybe worse… last year Joe in the 200 and 400 put him to shame… he was supposed to make the points…the kid went out a senior, got no places in all 4 or 5 events… too many - his coach worked him like that every week meet after meet 4-5 events.
Remainder of Thread on update
Dazed
Moderator Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 416
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenonth
Preperation for the volume of work my old coach did was not the issue, I was in my third year of his program, the entire group(some of which had been there 5years) was showing signs of pro-longed burnout infact more then myself wentout to be completely fried afterwards. Preperation had nothing to do with it in this case unfortunatly or it would have been alot simpler in some means. ANd long hill work? I don’t know, i don’t recall charlie at his seminar every promoting any sort of hill work at all there are always those few who can handle any type of training and run fast so comparing the 1 or 2 ppl to the rest doesn’t work either. Im just saying that from what I have seen high volume programs can cause alot of problems. Why focus on quantity instead of quality? Aren’t we all trying to run quality races? not the most races in a season.
How do you know preparation didn’t have anything to do with it? I’m currently doing sessions that six months ago that would have left me fried there and then. The difference is the preparation.
Regarding the long hill work. Simply not being mentioned by Charlie in his seminar does not mean that hill work is useless, it simply mean he didn’t mention it in his seminar, if you do a search of this site I think you’ll find he actually supports short hill work for 100m sprinters during the prep phase. Many sprinter use hills in their training - I know at least 5 of the 7 sub 44 second runners have used hill quite extensively in their programmes as have 8 of the top ten of all time - and most do not have any problems what-so-ever with them. You’ve had a bad experience with them, this does not mean that if an athlete is properly prepared and the coach correctly implements them that they should not be used - don’t let your emotions cloud the issue.
Quote:
Why focus on quantity instead of quality? Aren’t we all trying to run quality races?
Who suggested focussing on quality? Tell me, why do we train? Why don’t you just head out and race or time trial every training night? Hell you can’t get much more specific than that! But where would it leave you?
Developing a base A) Contributes directly to performance (b) increases placticity © develops systems essential to recovery, which is necessary to doing the work that will later lead to quality performances.
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#47 01-16-2008, 09:44 PM
Zenonth
Member Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Richmond BC Canada
Posts: 96
Preperation wasn’;t a factor cause all 7 of us had done trh exact same training program for 3 years with 4 weeks break inb/t it had nothing to do with if we wheren’t rpepared it had to do with him not knowing wtf he was doing or how to cycle a program properly. ANd Im not saying hills are useless we used them for gpp in the fall but no longer then 30m’s.
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#48 01-17-2008, 01:13 AM
AthleticsCoach
Member Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 75
Zenonth:
You need to keep a few things in mind.
First, the title of this thread, “400m Strength.” As you are training for the 100-200m what you do to prepare will have some inherent and essential differences from a 400m athlete.
Second, while I truly repsect everything that Charlie has to offer, including the opportunity to freely share ideas on this board, he is one of but many coaches who have coached world-class sprinters. Ben + Carl were trained differently, yet both were great, and on another day in 1988 the later may well have won. The point being that each coach has to find the methods that work for him; the ones that he believes work best and that he can effectively sell to the athlete.
Third, I think that PJ alluded to this in the Lactate Threshold thread, 400m runner really need to feel tapped out by their sessions at least a couple of times a week. I’m not saying that this is necessarally a good thing, but mentally they need it. I think it’s safer to do this on a hill than on the flat where higher velocities can lead to injury (to fast to soon, running outside of the technical model, etc.).
I have two people in my group who ran fast as youngsters. A male who was 11.20’s FAT at age 14 (un-trained), and a female was 12.20’s FAT at age 13 (trained improperly, IMHO). The first has moved to the 400m and the second has moved to the 400h because of numerous injuries (one is 20 the other is 22). If I were to train them as you prescribe they would implode in 1-2 sessions. Granted I/we do not have access to high level physiotherapy, but the female at least is very good about he outside work (baths, stretching, foam roller, etc.). I have another male in my group who I can pile anything onto and the worst that he gets is sore. He’s also slow (11.20’s, but he’s a good hurdler). The point being here that a coach needs to use his head, and not get stuck on a single ideology.
Also, in relation to your previous statements, doing fast 350’s + 250’s often and early will have you ready for your first meets and wrecked by the Championship meets. Trust me on this.
Last point and sorry to go on so long. If long hills are so darned bad, why has U of Minn. produced so many quality 400m guys over the past decade or so. They run the hell out of them, and do it year-around. They’re just smart enough to include training that will stimulate speed as well. Check out what they did in the way of training in 2003 + 2004 over at Trackshark.com. They are far from the only program that uses hill in there program (Baylor!). I’ve spoken with a few more US college coaches who would use hill sprints, but don’t have one at their disposal
-AC
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#49 01-17-2008, 03:14 AM
Zenonth
Member Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Richmond BC Canada
Posts: 96
I might have worded some stuff incorrectly im not goinga go re-read everything i posted lol. I’m probalby somewhat gunshy towards over volume program due to how badly this specific coach has burned out so many athletes since he tookover the universisties sprint program(this number probably is somewhere in the 40-50 athlete’s range) and ontop of that most of his runners never did anything outside of the university season or after there career’s becuz they where so fuckedup. I probably should have explain further, this specific coach didn’t just beat u down, he wanted u throwing up atleast 3 times a week, there where no proper rests peroids, u’d do a speed endurance or lactic or w/e the fuck he called it but in the end it was extremly stresffull on the body on one day and then come back with PLYO’S and heavy weights the nxt day without even 48 hours rest. Then to top it off the third day he’d do 6-8 150’s off 5 minutes! and call it speedwork!
Let me show u a sample of 2 weeks and then u will probably understand(he didn’t work in any sorta meso cycles just 10 day workout plans lol
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#50 01-17-2008, 03:21 AM
Zenonth
Member Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Richmond BC Canada
Posts: 96
I might have worded some stuff incorrectly im not goinga go re-read everything i posted lol. I’m probalby somewhat gunshy towards over volume program due to how badly this specific coach has burned out so many athletes since he tookover the universisties sprint program(this number probably is somewhere in the 40-50 athlete’s range) and ontop of that most of his runners never did anything outside of the university season or after there career’s becuz they where so fuckedup. I probably should have explain further, this specific coach didn’t just beat u down, he wanted u throwing up atleast 3 times a week, there where no proper rests peroids, u’d do a speed endurance or lactic or w/e the fuck he called it but in the end it was extremly stresffull on the body on one day and then come back with PLYO’S and heavy weights the nxt day without even 48 hours rest. Then to top it off the third day he’d do 6-8 150’s off 5 minutes! and call it speedwork!
Let me show u a sample of 2 weeks and then u will probably understand(he didn’t work in any sorta meso cycles just 10 day workout plans lol
Monday Inclines (wheel chair lamp 80m’s long not lvl) 4x4 sprint up jog back 3 min break followed by 4x half ram all out 3 minute break
Tuesday
1x500 5 mins 3x300+150 5 mins b/t sets 2 mins b/t reps
Wednesday plyo’s some gay stick drills and a shitload of HIGH hurdle hops(42 inchs)
Thursday
3x4x150 5 min b/t reps 7-8 b/t sets
Friday off
Saturday blocks
On pavement in running shoe’s called speed work
2x30 2x40 2x50 2x60
Sunday now here’s the one that makes no sense
100+100+100
200+200+200
100+200+100
200+200+200
100+100+100
3 mins bt set jog distance b/t reps
Thats a standard week but there is little to no variation through 4 months of that
the tuesdays change slightly but always stay high volume and the thursday ge morphed into 150’s and 60’s with 4 of each for no real purpose and alot of the work is done in flats.
thats just the post gpp stuff, if i posted the GPP stuff if its even a gpp phase u’d wonder wtf was going on. A bunch of my friend still train with this specific coach and let mee see 1 quit 2 are injured the third is falling apart.
One of the main problems no program is for the same person, everything is specific to the person and there body, but in this case there is no variation.
ANd what i have found is that alot of coach espically locally throw there kids in high volume programs for no practical purpose other then they think they need to get ‘stronger’ and they see some early results cause the kid’s never done anything then they fall apart.
One girl around here in gr 9 ran 55.5 in the 400m. her coach got all giddy and had her run 100 200 400 LJ ever meet leading up to world youth and she went to world youth and ran 58. I dunno what she ran last year but as you can see I have some reasons for my beleif’s.
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#51 01-17-2008, 03:54 AM
AthleticsCoach
Member Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenonth
I might have worded some stuff incorrectly im not goinga go re-read everything i posted lol. I’m probalby somewhat gunshy towards over volume program due to how badly this specific coach has burned out so many athletes since he tookover the universisties sprint program(this number probably is somewhere in the 40-50 athlete’s range) and ontop of that most of his runners never did anything outside of the university season or after there career’s becuz they where so fuckedup. I probably should have explain further, this specific coach didn’t just beat u down, he wanted u throwing up atleast 3 times a week, there where no proper rests peroids, u’d do a speed endurance or lactic or w/e the fuck he called it but in the end it was extremly stresffull on the body on one day and then come back with PLYO’S and heavy weights the nxt day without even 48 hours rest. Then to top it off the third day he’d do 6-8 150’s off 5 minutes! and call it speedwork!
Let me show u a sample of 2 weeks and then u will probably understand(he didn’t work in any sorta meso cycles just 10 day workout plans lol
Monday Inclines (wheel chair lamp 80m’s long not lvl) 4x4 sprint up jog back 3 min break followed by 4x half ram all out 3 minute break
Tuesday
1x500 5 mins 3x300+150 5 mins b/t sets 2 mins b/t reps
Wednesday plyo’s some gay stick drills and a shitload of HIGH hurdle hops(42 inchs)
Thursday
3x4x150 5 min b/t reps 7-8 b/t sets
Friday off
Saturday blocks
On pavement in running shoe’s called speed work
2x30 2x40 2x50 2x60
Sunday now here’s the one that makes no sense
100+100+100
200+200+200
100+200+100
200+200+200
100+100+100
3 mins bt set jog distance b/t reps
Thats a standard week but there is little to no variation through 4 months of that
the tuesdays change slightly but always stay high volume and the thursday ge morphed into 150’s and 60’s with 4 of each for no real purpose and alot of the work is done in flats.
thats just the post gpp stuff, if i posted the GPP stuff if its even a gpp phase u’d wonder wtf was going on. A bunch of my friend still train with this specific coach and let mee see 1 quit 2 are injured the third is falling apart.
One of the main problems no program is for the same person, everything is specific to the person and there body, but in this case there is no variation.
ANd what i have found is that alot of coach espically locally throw there kids in high volume programs for no practical purpose other then they think they need to get ‘stronger’ and they see some early results cause the kid’s never done anything then they fall apart.
One girl around here in gr 9 ran 55.5 in the 400m. her coach got all giddy and had her run 100 200 400 LJ ever meet leading up to world youth and she went to world youth and ran 58. I dunno what she ran last year but as you can see I have some reasons for my beleif’s.
\
Well clearly this guy who was coaching you is quite mad (as in crazy). Hell asking people to do that is borderline abusive.
Still I only see one hill day on there and while the volume was fairly high (16x80m?), the actual hill wasn’t and I expect that the incline was very mild. That really wasn’t the problem.
When I look at this I can see the reason for the high failure rate. You guys were swimming in your own blood-lactate, which at some point WILL have a deleterious effect on your CNS, amongst other things (endocrine system, immune function, etc.). Did anyone actually get over the 42" hurdles? I can only imagine what the ground contacts must have been like. You guys were also on pavement or the track 6 days a week. Yikes!
Where were the weigths sited? There was so much blood-lactate floating about, there is no way I can see anyone getting out of lifting after one of these sessions.
Anyway, my condolences. I thought that my college coach could pile it on, but this is really crazy. I just wouldn’t blame the hills, the issue here are much larger.
Good luck, I hope you’ve found someone more humane to coach you.
-AC
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#52 01-17-2008, 04:51 AM
stiver9
Member Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 21
I am realizing more and more that speed is what has to be worked on now to improve my times. However as of now with indoor season just starting their is little point in changing what my coach has planned for me for the weeks ahead.
Outdoors will be a different story. Will the work I did during the winter pay off when I hit outdoors and begin focusing much more on speed??? Will it affect my base of training that I had done in the beginning during hte months of sept and oct???
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#53 01-17-2008, 05:38 AM
Zenonth
Member Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Richmond BC Canada
Posts: 96
weights where mon wed satand he gave us some high rep program. The hills where primarily used during his 6 weeks of fall training has he called it. Let me post a few worksout,
fall 6 weeks of park training as he called it.
Monday hills 150ms long usually 3x 4xhill jog back b/t reps 3-4 b’t sets
tuesday run around lake trail. 3x3x300+300 3-4 b/t sets 2 mins b/t reps then it got up to 3x2x600+600 off 2 mins 5 b/t sets
wednesday was circuit plyo’s
thursday he used 3 different hills but the first was 120 2nd 160 third 190 and they where fricking STEEP! it be uuslaly 3x3xhill jog back
or 3x2xhill all out min 5 recovyer
friday off
saturday a shitload amount of shuttles 2 4 6 8 10 8 6 4 2
sunday
was the same as i posted above
and we did this for 6 weeks.
And yes my immune system would always get fuckedup and i’d get sick 4-5 times from sept till april last year i was sick for 8 weeks and on anti-btoic for 6 cause it got so bad.
He beleived everything should be lactic to make u stronger for the 400m. Tuesday if u weren’t puking he’d make fun of u.
I puked 9 straight weeks and kept getting slower and all he’d tell me is GOODJOB U GET OUTA THE COMFORT ZONE.
neeldess to say i had an ephiphany midway through the season of throwingup and slow times to get the fuck outa there once my scholarship contract was finished in may.
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#54 01-17-2008, 06:40 AM
AthleticsCoach
Member Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenonth
weights where mon wed satand he gave us some high rep program. The hills where primarily used during his 6 weeks of fall training has he called it. Let me post a few worksout,
fall 6 weeks of park training as he called it.
Monday hills 150ms long usually 3x 4xhill jog back b/t reps 3-4 b’t sets
tuesday run around lake trail. 3x3x300+300 3-4 b/t sets 2 mins b/t reps then it got up to 3x2x600+600 off 2 mins 5 b/t sets
wednesday was circuit plyo’s
thursday he used 3 different hills but the first was 120 2nd 160 third 190 and they where fricking STEEP! it be uuslaly 3x3xhill jog back
or 3x2xhill all out min 5 recovyer
friday off
saturday a shitload amount of shuttles 2 4 6 8 10 8 6 4 2
sunday
was the same as i posted above
and we did this for 6 weeks.
And yes my immune system would always get fuckedup and i’d get sick 4-5 times from sept till april last year i was sick for 8 weeks and on anti-btoic for 6 cause it got so bad.
He beleived everything should be lactic to make u stronger for the 400m. Tuesday if u weren’t puking he’d make fun of u.
I puked 9 straight weeks and kept getting slower and all he’d tell me is GOODJOB U GET OUTA THE COMFORT ZONE.
neeldess to say i had an ephiphany midway through the season of throwingup and slow times to get the fuck outa there once my scholarship contract was finished in may.
Well this guy clearly has some sadistic tendancies
Vomitting is a violent assault on the body and coaches who try to induce it either haven’t been there or have a screw loose. Of course it happens, but I feel badly when I make a kid ill at at practice.
That fall program is nearly as nuts as the late gpp. The tue. and maybe the sat. sessions wouldn’t have been too bad if he allowed you to keep the tempo under control (which he obviously didn’t).
Steep hills are destructive as they deviate from your technical model.
Weights after hills is a waste of time at best a likely chance of injury at worst. Both CNS and Peripheral Nervous System are shot before you’re in the weight room. Weights and plyo’s might work for some but not sandwiched between the other 2 sessions.
Sadly, I do know of a coach who trains kids similar to what you have outlined. The only difference is that he puts in one speed oriented day to fool himself (not the athletes).
Hey at least you got to barf in the woods a couple of day a week.
-AC
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#55 01-17-2008, 07:02 AM
Zenonth
Member Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Richmond BC Canada
Posts: 96
lol the tuesday wasn’t refered to as tempo it was refer to as speed endurace day and he considered it the core day of training. The pattern for his athletes is there really fit for indoors and run good times, they peak at mtsac and get slower and more burnout as the year carries on. I did ok for 2 years under the program cause id done no training what so ever.the stuff that he pulls outa his ass during b/t indoor and outsdoors is nearly as insane.
The mondays become a actually tempo day
tuesday turn into like
2x350 5 mins b/t 2x200+200 2 mins b/t reps 10 b/t sets
or later on there one that is 2x3x300 5 mins b/t reps 10 b;t sets he considers that the best workout of the year and its normally 3 weeks following the indoor champs. THen they all get even weirder
like
2x300 2x200+200 and just kinda float around there without much modification.
wed become tempo
thursdays are like 4x30 blocks 2x60 blocks 2x150 1x200
saturday well they compete for 9 straight weeks
sundays are tempo or that looney 800m workout.
oh did i mention weights are cutout after march cause he doesn’t think they help.
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#56 01-17-2008, 12:25 PM
kitkat1
Moderator Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 875
Surviving in a “limited democracy”
Zenonth: Sounds like you got a live one there.
Cannot defend anything he’s done in the context.
I’ve routinely set 3x2x360m hill sprints at angle about 12 degrees. Recovery between reps is a slow shuffle back down, stretch calves, quads and go again. That’s a killer set and is meant to be.
But recovery between sets is usually about 45 minutes. (And athletes work up to intensity and to a third set). And the next day is usually either a very comfortable tempo session or a rest day.
If weights are ever done after a hill session they will be upperbody and torso restricted.
I like 2x200+200. We’ve used that routinely also in pre-comp phase. We’ve also used 2mins between reps.
But again, the recovery between sets is “full” so that usually means up to 45mins, or whatever it takes for the individual athlete on a given day.
Then again, the emphasis on the 200 + 200 was rarely flat stick on the first rep. Mostly the first rep was used to rehease the race model, trying to get the feel and rhythm of whatever pace you plan to go through the opening 200m of your 400m race.
When as coach I set the time of the rep, time of the recovery between reps, and the number of reps and the number of sets then I think it’s only reasonable to let the athlete determine their own recovery time between sets. This has worked well in a limited democracy .
kk
I know my post will seem miniscule compared to the epic above it, and I am not relating my post to it at all. I am replying to those who are absolutely positive that one must be a blazing sprinter to be a blazing 400m man. Our best 400m kid (54.07 FAT indoor) is a sub 2-minute 800m kid and could not run a sub 23 200 if he was being chased by a pack of wolves. I took the go out fast approach all season last year, and he only ran the 400m once last year and smoked me with a 51.8 doing mile workouts. I didn’t run 400s after the second half of the season last year, and although I split a 52.9 on the short leg of the 1600m relay, my PB open was a 55.12 FAT. This indoor season, I decided to try coming out a little slower and maintain a pace throughout, and I ran a 55.03 FAT with no spikes or blocks, indoor. What I’m trying to say is, there’s more than one way to skin a cat.