30m to 60m DROP OFF

I’m sure you guys have heard of this one.

Today at the track I did 5 x 30m from blocks, and 3 x 60m from blocks w/ 8-10 min rest.

My times were: 3.99, 4.00, 4.01, 4.02, 4.00, 60m times 7.08, 7.10, 7.13.

All hand times by a VERY good timer.
I mean this o’l gal is off by .15 at meets compared to FAT.

From my 30m times I should have post at least 7.05 in the 60’s right?

I’m falling off for some reason after 30m.

I feel relaxed, but something is holding my times down.

I should be running 10.60 in the 100 m.

Have you guys experienced this?

Kenny Mac~~

Thanks Coach Francis, I didn’t think about that!

Kenny Mac~~

You might consider the fact that most of the hand timing error/difference occurs at the start, with the finish being constant, so the times are probably consistent.

Kenny,

In addition to what Charlie said, you are probably running the 30m’s at a slightly higher intensity than the 60m’s. The shorter the distance during a training, the greater the natural tendency to go all-out. If your timer had timed the first 30m segment of your 60m’s, they would have been around 4.10 - 4.15.

As for determining your 100m time on the basis of your 30m and 60m times, I think that your 60m time is not indicative of 10.60, but (at the moment) more like 11.10 - 11.20. The 30m indicates 10.80, but from experience I am simply not inclined to trust 30m training times all that much. For instance, a couple of weeks ago I ran a 20m electronically timed, in 2.84 seconds (excluding reaction time), which should put me in the 10.20 -10.30 range when in fact I am three-quarters of a second slower over 100m. Train your 30’s, but trust your 60’s.

Good to hear that you are training again, BTW; I first encountered you on the Sub10 board a couple of years ago :slight_smile:

Totally agree Snell!!

I just competed in the Australian national titles andmy coach timed my over 30m in pre race warm ups at 3.3 from first step, I did this three times pre race and ran 10.82 wind -0.8.

I was thinking 3.3, Holy @#*@ I’m going to smash these guys!!

Although must admit I hadn’t completed anywhere near the speed endurance work leading into the comp. Actually if nationals was in twelve weeks (enough time to work on the Speed endurance) I think I would have been in the mix at least for a medal, anyway I’ll keep training and see what happens!!
Justin:clap:

Totally agree Snell!!

I just competed in the Australian national titles andmy coach timed my over 30m in pre race warm ups at 3.3 from first step, I did this three times pre race and ran 10.82 wind -0.8.

I was thinking 3.3, Holy @#*@ I’m going to smash these guys!!

Although must admit I hadn’t completed anywhere near the speed endurance work leading into the comp. Actually if nationals was in twelve weeks (enough time to work on the Speed endurance) I think I would have been in the mix at least for a medal, anyway I’ll keep training and see what happens!!
Justin:clap:

Kenny,
Sounds like you need to develop that section of your race, as charlie says in CFTS, once the speed is there over t30, then move on to developing the speed to 60m, and once the speed to 60m is there, you can move onto top speed development. As i’ve found myself these things take time, but, they do happen. I only had enough time for two 12week blocks leading into nationals, and it showed , I was in the mix at 60m, but fell right away over the last 40m. I totally new this would be the case as i hadn’t had any quality speed endurance work under my belt. I plan on completing the 12week speed endurance block now and see how fast I can become with some work on top speed!!
cheers,
Justin:sing:

Thanks guys! It’s amazing how your body response to different distances just 30m huh?

I really appreciate the advise.

I know for sure now that I need to work on my 2nd part of my race.

Thanks again,

Not bad tho for an old man huh? hahahah

ps; Good to hear that you are training again, BTW; I first encountered you on the Sub10 board a couple of years ago

snelkracht

That’s my hang out place haaah

Kenny Mac~~

Kenny Mac, times do sound about right for hand timng.

However, I would suggest another way to do hand times trials for 30m and 60m or 100m that has worked well for any athlete I have timed in regard to actual electronic times when they race. This involves the timer, who is also the starter, standing at the finish of the 30m, 60m, or 100m. When he yells out go he or she presses the clock simultaneously and obviously stops the watch on the line. However, what ever time that is clocked has to be adjusted to allow for the speed of sound as the sprinter has to wait for the sound to travel before he hears it and reacts to it. From a rough calculation from the speed of sound, we have estimated that sounds travels at around 0.12 for 30m. Thus, any time clocked by my method takes off 0.12 for 30m, 0.24 for 60m, nd 0.40 for 100m.

Though the method is not exact, is it much more accurate than ordinary hand timing.

Again, I repeat that the timer who is also the starter, must press the clock at the exact moment he yells go. For athletes who do not have the luxary of affording expensive electronic equipment, I promise that such a method will give you a much more accurate and honest summary of one’s own ability and potential. I have seen to many hand timed estimates that falsely predict fast times only to have the truth demoralise the athlete when he actually competes.

Neverthless, 30m potential is absolutely crucial to 60m and 100m times.

While different splits may not be exact for predicting 100m times given differing abilities, I have prepared the following chart based on the splits of many leading athletes.

Figures worked out form 60m divided by 30m, and 100m divided by 60m. This is done on the basis that in order to maximise potential, one must be able to run an efficient 60m before one can run properly at 100m.

Figures worked out by 60m divided by 30m, and 100m divided by 60m. This is done on the basis that in order to maximise potential, one must be able to run an efficient 60m before one can run properly at 100m.

For example based on Johnson’s 1987 times, 60-30m = 1.678 100m-60m = 1.540

Ben Johnson
1987
3.80
6.38
9.83

Lewis 1987
3.91
6.50
9.93

M.Greene
1999
3.81
6.39
9.80

Surin 1999
3.79
6.38
9.84

Flo Jo 1988 OG semi final
4.09
6.89
10.54

B.Johnson 1988
3.80
6.33
9.75?

Calvin Smith 1988
3.90
6.50
9.99

Christie 1988
3.92
6.50
9.97

Flo Jo 1988 final
4.08
6.90
10.61

Kenderis Bremen 2002
3.98
6.63
10.15

Lewis 1991
3.88
6.46
9.86

Burrell
3.79
6.41
9.88

Bailey 1997
3.86
6.43
9.91

Montgomery 1997
3.82
6.42
9.93

Hence, given that all of these athletes are world level medalists, I have averaged their proportions to come up with following chart base on an average of a conversion figure of 1.673 for the 60-30m, and for the 100-60m a conversion figure of 1.535. While I remain confident with 60-100m predictions, I am not so sure that 30m times are a good basis for predicting times. Logically, comparing 60m times with 100m is so much wiser given that the longer distance reduces the chance of uncertain variables. This may include the fact that 30m trials do tend to cause athletes to waste much more energy than when trying to run efficient and technically sound at a longer distance. For this reason, I always emphasise 60m trials as my main test over a shorter distance to measure reaction, acceleration, and the transition to top speed.

30m 3.75
60m 6.27
100m 9.62

3.80
6.35
9.74

3.85
6.44
9.88

3.90
6.52
10.00

3.95
6.60
10.13

4.00
6.69
10.26

4.05
6.77
10.39

4.10
6.82
10.46

4.15
6.94
10.65

4.20
7.02
10.77

4.25
7.11
10.91

4.30
7.18
11.02

4.35
7.27
11.15

4.40
7.36
11.29

As indicated by snelkracht, and from the above figures, it is obviously smarter to compare your 60m times with 100m than 30m with 60m or 100m. However, the above predicted times can only result from athletes that are highly efficient technically at top speed between 30m and 100m.

Thanks, So you’re saying start the watch when the starter says go?

I like that, what if you stand right behind the runner, which I’ll need 3 people then one to yell go and one for the timer.

That should help w/ the .13 sound of travel.

I’l try that on Wednesday.

I’ll let you know how it turns out.

Thanks again.

Kenny Mac~~

Great Post Spartacus :clap:

Becareful: those prediction can’t be used for men and women: For a same given time (for example 11.00), men show faster 30-60m section (maximum speed), while women are faster for 60-100m section (speed maintenance).

Originally posted by pierrejean
Becareful: those prediction can’t be used for men and women: For a same given time (for example 11.00), men show faster 30-60m section (maximum speed), while women are faster for 60-100m section (speed maintenance).

Interesting pj, but… keep in mind an 11.0 male sprinter is either not fully developed or not genetically talented. An 11.0 female sprinter is very highly developed AND genetically talented. This will show in the speed endurance.

That’s why different tables (and training programs!?!) are required for men and women.

snelkracht said:
"In addition to what Charlie said, you are probably running the 30m’s at a slightly higher intensity than the 60m’s. The shorter the distance during a training, the greater the natural tendency to go all-out. If your timer had timed the first 30m segment of your 60m’s, they would have been around 4.10 - 4.15. "

I completely agree with you, this is true also for Reaction Time, statistics shows that the shorter distance to run, the shorter Reaction Time, from 60m competitions resulsts compared to 100m, 200m and 400m. I guess that if we searched Reaction times for 30m races, they would be shorter than for 60m races.
Talking about 30m times related to 100m, the equation doesn’t work due to all the energy burn during a 30m test. It simply doesn’t take in account the energy loss. That was the weakness of the training program using 30m and 60m times in relation to split times during 100m in order to check progression through the year.

Since we’re posting figures, I might as well post a few of my own. This is based on real-life training times of athletes who run the hundred in between 10.50 and 11.50; I haven’t trained or trained with any sub-10.50 athletes so I extrapolated to 10.25 and left it at that. If you run faster than 10.25 you won’t be needing my advice anyway.

The first three columns are hand-times for the 40m, 50m, and 60m during training. Honestly clocked, please - don’t start the stopwatch when you’re two meters over the start line and press stop when the finish line is still a stridelength away. The fourth column is what you can expect to run in a 100m race with electronic timing and no wind advantage.

The times may seem a bit conservative, but most athletes I have met are “eager” clockers: they err on the optimistic side, and round downwards. Like me :slight_smile:


40 HT	50 HT	60 HT	100m ET 

5.15	6.16	7.17	11.45
5.10	6.09	7.08	11.35
5.05	6.03	7.01	11.25
5.00	5.98	6.96	11.15
4.95	5.91	6.87	11.05
4.90	5.86	6.82	10.95
4.85	5.79	6.74	10.85
4.80	5.74	6.68	10.75
4.75	5.67	6.59	10.65
4.70	5.62	6.54	10.55
4.65	5.55	6.45	10.45
4.60	5.50	6.40	10.35
4.55	5.43	6.31	10.25

Have been away, so will now respond to a number of responses to my previous post on 30-60m times.

First, for Kenny Mac, my manual timing requires the timer to also be the starter. If you are doing a 60m trial or 30m or 100m, the timer, who is also the starter, stands at the finish line. When he yells out go, he also presses the clock simultaneously. Because the athlete has to wait to hear the go from the starter, the final time recorded is reduced by 0.12 for 30m, 0.24 for 60m, and 0.4 for 100m.

For instance, a timed 6.74 from this method becomes 6.50. A time of 10.50 becomes 10.10.

Of course, nothing is ever exact and will depend upon the honesty and quality of the starter to press the clock as soon as he begins to say go. Neverthless, this is quite easy and the times recorded will be very similar to electronic times if done correctly. I have never been far away with my times from actual electronic times.
It is certainly much more accurate than predicting electronic times form manual 60m splits done with smoke from the gun and another timer at the finish. It also removes the problem of hoping that the flash or smoke will work when an athlete is doing a test trial. The only drawback is that such a timing mthod can only be used to time one athlete at a time.

Second, for pierrejean, yes there are discrepencies between men and women and between faster and slower athletes in regard to predicting a 100m time from 60m splits, although flo jo also has a similar proportion with the top men.
Hence, my chart is merely a rough guide to identifying weaknesses within a 100m race. To be honest, one merely needs to develop each component as much as possible, including 30m from the blocks, a flying 30m, 60m from the block and so on. It is from working on all aspects, acceleration, top speed, and holding form, that an athlete is likely to fulfil his or her potential. This is common sense.
Obviously, improving one’s 60m is a terrific guide to indicating potential over 100m. Nevertheless, it is only 60% of the race and many incredibly fast athletes over 60m have never fulfilled their potential over 100m because of technical difficulties at holding top speed. After all, skill is an aspect that many find difficult to learn in comparison to others for a number of reasons.

i came across some of john smiths stuff and he said that your meant to slow the race down.that is change gears.dnt go all out in the beginning.gradually build your speed.obviously you have to come out fast from your blocks but save some energy for top end speed.

What would cause someone to be fast at the beginning and end of a 100 and be slow in the middle? a low top speed or…

Just a quick query. Last season I did a set of 60’s from blocks and ran 7.00, 7.19 and 7.15. To me this equates to around an 11.2? 100m, but I only ran 11.4. One other thing I noticed is that I think my 200m pr doesn’t equate either. I ran 22.4 last year, but my 100m times suggest that I should be running a slower 200m time. Is this true, and what can be done to improve it? :help:

Another thing, all the 60’s were hand timed by a very reliable coach. She’s usually only 0.1 out of the official time