White athletes should forget the 100m?

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popequique]Republic of Ghana didnt become a Republic until the 1960’s and from my understanding the decline had to do with limited resources and political unrest not the cia. Just my opinion, I am really indifferent as ghana really isnt my biggest concern in life.

State facts don’t bring your opinions into it. What are the facts?

Well your understanding is wrong… the CIA and US government had MAJOR part to play. They organised the coup that overthrew Nkrumah.

American corporations would build the dam for Nkrumah, but they would also place numerous restrictions on what could be produced using the power that it generated. It was a bad deal, but Nkrumah would not back away from it. He used borrowed money to build the dam. This placed Ghana in serious debt. Financing the debt incurred by building a dam in the north required higher taxation of the cocoa farmers in the south. This accentuated regional differences and jealousy. The dam project was completed and officially opened by Nkrumah amidst world publicity on January 22, 1966. The dam continues to generate power for Ghana and surrounding countries. Nkrumah appeared to be at the zenith of his power. In reality, the end of his regime was only days away.

Nkrumah wanted Ghana to have modern armed forces. He acquired aircraft and ships and introduced conscription. He also gave military support those fighting the racist government of Southern Rhodesia (Zimbabwe). In February 1966, while Nkrumah was away on a state visit to Beijing, China, his government was overthrown in a CIA supported military coup.

Source:Wikipedia

Historians agree that the CIA were involved.

The British Broadcasting Corporation’s “Black Power” documentary aired in late 1990s through the evidence of historians and first hand acoounts blames Kaiser and the CIA in destabilizing the Ghanaian economy. Limited resources… what a joke! Political instability fueled by CIA operatives. Do not forget that The American’s and Soviets were using Africa as another front to fight the Cold War. Angola is a case in point where both were heavily involved in arming the rebels and the government.

The bottom line is alot of Africa’s sorry state is due to internal frictions that were set up by divide and rule policies of its colonial past and the need for the West to have the ability to buy non-value added goods. Of course African’s can not be totally exonerated but its a fact that intelligence has less to do with its sorry state and more to do with the western policies towards the continent.

Read the pages below if you really want the facts NOT just making an “opinion” on limited facts then start with the sites below. The first link is from the “Black Power” documentary

http://www.africasia.co.uk/archive/na/02_02/cover2.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kwame_Nkrumah

Just to add also that its not my biggest concenr in life just to re-iterate that my arguement is along the lines that intelligence has nothing to do with Africa’s situation and much to do with the fall out from colonialism (encouragement of tribalism) and the Cold War (The US and USSR used African countries as pawns in their war perfect exmple; Angola).

Please do not post again till you educate yourself.

A final point on this whole affair.

Intelligence is NOT the reason for Africa’s sorry situation, the major factor is Western meddling and economic policies, miseducation, tribalism and corruption.

We were not talking about the rest of the world we were talking about white men. You are going to create a whole new pile of bile if you start saying niceties correctness like;
"everyone can run 10.0-9.77 secs. "
Its not really needed.
White men are capable of running below 10 secs. The only thing stopping them is self belief and lack of support when it counts. I have heard others telling me that the reason why black people run faster is because they have extra muscles. Their own families and friends telling them that its futile to try to compete in the 100m because black people are more talented in that event. WHAT A F******G LOAD OF BS!!! JUST LIKE THIS SHIT ABOUT INTELLIGENCE.

PLEASE QUOTE FACTS NOT YOUR OPINION. THIS IS VERY ANNOYING…HOW DID YOU DEDUCE THAT IT WAS DOWN TO LACK OF RESOURCES?

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So he made a boo boo and it is the corporations’ fault?

Source:Wikipedia

Historians agree that the CIA were involved.

The British Broadcasting Corporation’s “Black Power” documentary aired in late 1990s through the evidence of historians and first hand acoounts blames Kaiser and the CIA in destabilizing the Ghanaian economy. Limited resources… what a joke! Political instability fueled by CIA operatives. Do not forget that The American’s and Soviets were using Africa as another front to fight the Cold War. Angola is a case in point where both were heavily involved in arming the rebels and the government.
I don’t think anyone is saying it is right, but the fire was already there and you know it. Others just added the fuel, just like in most of Africa where war and violence has been the rule, not the exception, forever basically.

The bottom line is alot of Africa’s sorry state is due to internal frictions that were set up by divide and rule policies of its colonial past and the need for the West to have the ability to buy non-value added goods. Of course African’s can not be totally exonerated but its a fact that intelligence has less to do with its sorry state and more to do with the western policies towards the continent.
Whoa whoa, internal frictions may have been exacerbated by 3rd parties, but make no mistake, they were there already. You’re acting like this is something new. The only difference is they have better weapons now than macehetes and spears.

Read the pages below if you really want the facts NOT just making an “opinion” on limited facts then start with the sites below. The first link is from the “Black Power” documentary

http://www.africasia.co.uk/archive/na/02_02/cover2.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kwame_Nkrumah

Just to add also that its not my biggest concenr in life just to re-iterate that my arguement is along the lines that intelligence has nothing to do with Africa’s situation and much to do with the fall out from colonialism (encouragement of tribalism) and the Cold War (The US and USSR used African countries as pawns in their war perfect exmple; Angola).

Boundaries of countries were set-up incorrectly and is was due to colonialism, esp. by the Dutch (not sure why you left that out, they caused most of the problems in central Africa). This fact shouldn’t give reason for African to fight each other for centuries, which they have already been doing! It is easy to blame others when the people aren’t doing shit to change it. Sorry, just my feelings, but it is a fact that this has been going on far longer than when the Europeans started colonizing Africa.

Please do not post again till you educate yourself.

A final point on this whole affair.

Intelligence is NOT the reason for Africa’s sorry situation, the major factor is Western meddling and economic policies, miseducation, tribalism and corruption.
[/qote] Wow that was rough. While he does need to read up a bit, as it is very clear, you didn’t really address what he was saying, I think. I think he was referring to blacks in North America and Europe today, not Africans or Africa.

[quote]
We were not talking about the rest of the world we were talking about white men. You are going to create a whole new pile of bile if you start saying niceties correctness like;
"everyone can run 10.0-9.77 secs. "
Its not really needed.
White men are capable of running below 10 secs. The only thing stopping them is self belief and lack of support when it counts. I have heard others telling me that the reason why black people run faster is because they have extra muscles. Their own families and friends telling them that its futile to try to compete in the 100m because black people are more talented in that event. WHAT A F******G LOAD OF BS!!! JUST LIKE THIS SHIT ABOUT INTELLIGENCE.
Agree with you here, don’t know how many times i have heard the extra muscle(s) or an extra tendon thing in my life, but it is too many to count.

PLEASE QUOTE FACTS NOT YOUR OPINION. THIS IS VERY ANNOYING…HOW DID YOU DEDUCE THAT IT WAS DOWN TO LACK OF RESOURCES?

I agree with you here, but you aren’t presenting all of the facts yourself and it may be because your forgot, or don’t know, I am not sure. There were though wars before Europeans got there and many of the tribes were not historically very kind or peaceful to each other (not all, but many).

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He was refering to all black peoples globally, not just African American or Blacks ine Europe he said globally; go back and read his comments…

Before this totally runs away lets not forget that comancho stated that it was logical to say that if some of the forum are argueing that if white men can’t run fast, then blacks by logic are less intelligent. He then stated that this fact can be supported globally in terms of the most developed and under-developed. I used Ghana as an example to refute his arguement by trying to show that it was not due to less intelligence but recent actions by countries like the US for example that has retarded development. Now I am sure that peoples backs will be up and they will find all sorts of other factors to exonerate US policy.

(About Ghana)Other sectors of the economy are faring much worse. The Financial Times has said that what is happening in Ghana is ‘de-industrialisation’. Ghana’s small and medium scale industries are being put out of business by international competition. Under the ‘structural adjustment’ policy favoured by the International Monetary Fund, Ghanaian industry cannot be protected against outside competition. source: http://www.worldwrite.org.uk/ghanaeconomy.html

Now tell me, hows that fair? So… other countries can protect their companies through protectionism but African countries have to open up their markets? The money leaves the country and it the looks like…Oh they are not intelligent.
The Africans can do nothing, their economies are controlled by Western countries; its just another form of colonialism… by proxy.

The facts are there; the CIA have been part of the geo-political instabilities that exist in Africa. Part NOT the full, but a major part. The IMF (controlled by US and even more so now G8 policy) has a governs and dictates economic policy in Africa through its structural re-adjustment policies.

It is then very easy to look on the surface and claim that lack of intelligence of blacks is the cause of Africa’s under development as an example. He did not just talk about African-Americans he talked globally so I chose to use Ghana as an example.

You obviously don’t know what you are talking about either. Divide and Rule WAS a political policy created by the British and adopted by many other European powers with colonies. Its not a phrase I made up its a policy that existed so there no “WHOA WHOA” about it.

All around the world ethnic groups have had centuries if disagreement ALL PEOPLES AROUND THE WORLD FIGHT no doubt about it. It is incorrect to say that they have been fighting forever as if that all they do…

Lets not forget that during Africa’s colonial past, to control people and create an order that they could understand the colonial powers encouraged division for hundreds of years.

Yet time and time again the US fuels these fires or re-ignites them.

By mentioning tribalism shows that I am not trying to hide anything.

One things for sure just because friction exists it does not make it right to add to that friction.

Once again these excuses are being made for past actions.

Forgot don’t know?

So what are the full facts. The facts that exonerate US/CIA involvement or the fact that the IMF and its “structural re-adjustment” policy and trade tariffs and protectionism ensures that millions of not just Ghanaians but many Africans are kept in poverty?

Then people turn around and say things like oh its due to intelligence…

What are you talking about people are not doing shit to change things?

Ignorant comment Davan, what do you know about African geo-political and socio-economic issues?

I will tell YOU how they are trying to change… by trying to educate themselves. By trying to fight corruption. By literally begging for fairer terms of trade. By trying to fight organisation like Mosanto, BP, Shell and many other big corparations making a dash for the continents riches under the guise of “structural re-adjustment”.

The Dutch and Belgians and French and Portugese influenced Central Africa through colonialism, thats true that happened its in the past it happened.

I am talking about 20th century actions by US/CIA. It does not matter that those boundaries were set-up wrong by ALL and the British as well. BUT the US is supposed to be a beacon of freedom as they like to tell us all. Why fuel the fire? Why add to it? For what purpose?

You need money and equal trade to solve these problems…its non existant. It follows the same line that Africans are lazy.

When there has been a coup in Africa invariably a corporation with mining interests or an outside government from abroad has added to the fire.

In Ghana’s case tribalism was not the cause of Nkrumah’s downfall it was CIA actions… fuelling and supporting a coup. This has been played out in South America, Asia (Indonesia in the 1950s-60s) the Carribean.

Do we always have to go way way back to stay irrelevant facts that exonerate present actions of the US/CIA?

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martn76,
I tried to PM you back, but it’s full!
Thanks for your response! I guess I now have got what I asked for… It was a genuine question anyway. :wink:

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I honestly can’t believe that you actually think Africa is not significantly to blame for it’s problems? Tariffs? Since when did tariffs help anybody? Why would Ghana employing tariffs and protectionist policies help themselves? I would love to hear that one. We have seen the history on tariffs and protectionist policies and how they work in the long run… look at what happened to mercantalism. Your economy adjusts and you change what you do. Not everyone can be winners here–you have to take who produces the best and most efficiently. Companies don’t really care who as we can see by the outsourcing to india, despite public criticism, and other countries that is going on right now. Take a look at the book The World is Flat

Fighting corruption? Look at who controls the countries and territories everywhere. Even the ones who are “for the people” or “for Africa” aren’t exactly the cleanest folks. No politicians anywhere are, but to act like the US (specificially the CIA) is coming in to keep Africa down is insane. I suppose the same goes for every other 3rd world area too, right? This would include India, who was kept down by the English? I’m just trying to understand you because some of what you say makes sense, but you are trying to place all of the blame on the US (and to an extent England) when most of the African leaders from the regional level on up haven’t done jack to fix their problems and many have just gotten rich in the process of fight the West or fighting each other.

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On a side note, we are getting way off-topic at this point.

John: It came up in coversationg because I met a Polish woman when I was in a bus station in Madrid. She said she was Polish and the first thing I said was “Do you know Woronin?” and she said yes of course ladaladalada. Dorky, I know, but I just wanted to see for myself if anybody even knew/cared about the guy from his own country.

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Well if you call it blame then…you can but I am stating the facts.

Not every third world country, others are doing their bit, but they are there.

You must view it from an economic stand point. If these countries are allowed to become equal partners then our wealth in the west decreases they will charge more for their goods demand higher standards of living, become the new competitors. As Adam Smith stated “Human needs are unlimited” and “Resources are finite”.
I think things are going over your head. The US and other countries employ tariffs that block entry of Ghanaian/African products into their market; oh sorry did you not know? They do make things.

As a matter of fact, yes many third world countries are kept down by US economic policy directly or indirectly premeditated or by chance its there… Who sells arms to these regimes? Who props them up? In fact who helped these regimes to take power?

The facts remain its out there stop feeling guilty, i am not blaming anyone I am stating the facts. Like I said alot of Africa’s problems are in part to do with US policy but alot is Africa’s own doing as well.

Alot of what I say is true its not insane. I suppose being American you would say that.

Why is it insane? Resources are limited. Africa has vast resources, if African governments develop then they will ask for the true market value of commodities, and in fact add value to their raw products. Look at it not in terms of race (though race has a factor) but in terms of economics. It suits the US now more than ever to maintain the status quo. God forbid if regimes in Africa collapse to be replaced by governments with an Islamic flavour.

What do you mean by they have not done jack to help themselves?
You really are ignorant…

Since you said “everywhere” in Africa is corrupt and dictatorial STOP LOOKING AT THE SURFACE AND MAKING CRASS ANALYSIS and find out how these regimes came about.

As you said, governments in Africa a corrupt, why does the US sell arms to these regimes?
Whats the logic? Is that not an endorsement?

For you education there are democratically elected governments in Africa but they have to cow tow to the IMF and World Bank hence colonialism by proxy.

I think you still have not grasped my angle. The agents playing their parts are due to psychology of economics.

Educate yourself about US policy, start with John Pilger
“Hidden Agendas”.
"The New Rulers of the World ".
Sounds conspiracy… I know but read if you are bothered.

To understand my angle you must read unbiased material I am biased as far as you are concerned, so start with John Pilger world renouned investigative journalist.

“You maybe schooled but not necessarily educated”. No offence meant just a saying.

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So you want to talk economics of this,
what economic reason would the US have to keep out products produced by Ghana?

We already export thousands and thousands of jobs to third world countries who are not white (if race was to be considered an issue) and we import billions of dollars (maybe trillions, haven’t seen the figures recently) worth of goods from foreign countries as well. I just don’t buy this argument that the US has some sort of agenda to keep Ghana out of trading right now–maybe Cold War era to mess with USSR et al, but that would go for quite a few countries, not just Ghana and the rest of Africa.

I grasp what you are saying, I just do not agree with you. Correction, I agree with some of what you say, but not your stance on the issue and especially not the economic reasons. It is not beneficial for the US to keep Ghana out the same reason why it was a good idea for us to export the steel industry, customer service/telemarketing, and to an extent, even automobiles. Now, let’s say the US does ban Ghana products, what about Europe? What about Asia? What about South America? The US is not the only place to get money and the Euro is gaining on the dollar by the day.

A smart economic move would to ask for lower prices for product (see former 3rd world countries) and to export it in mass quantities. Get an educated pop. to run the thing and you have yourself a way to get out of the poverty you are in–oh ya, get rid of one way or another the corrupt folks in your country (easier said than done, but at this point, only the people can really do anything and only if acting in large numbers).

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A SMART ECOMIC MOVE? do you think that African are so thick that they have not tackled this angle? YOU DO NOT understand evidently.
Listen prices are soooo low, its just above subsistence. They don’t ask for the price they are told what to sell and at what price…
Yes Europe too. The arabic countries and China have gone one better. They constructed wireless and telecommunications for West African countries, and in some way they have less ties with these countries.

I am talking about a whole continent now not just Ghana…come on. Actually the US has negative a balance of payments, you import more than you produce to export. Imagine countries with populations totalling billions being allowed to trade freely without tariffs and blocks to your market. It would be game over for uncompetitive parts of the economy.

You really have not got a clue…Former third world countries like South Korea were aided by marshall plans from the US. They were ALLOWED entrance of their products to the US as a way of discouraging the spread of communism. Singapore, South Korea, Taiwan, Malaysia and now Vietnam. US governments were terrified of the Chinese and Soviet influence on these countries. So what better antedote than membership to the American dream?

How can you develop your country when money is flowing out faster than you can make because of IMF policies. Incidently, structural re-adjustment does not allow African countries to be able to produce cheap mass produced goods.

The same type of plan was to be instigated in Iraq but as you know the insurgents have taken care of that…

If as you say protectionism is such a bad thing and does not work then how comes the US uses it extensively?

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Martn is right. It seems that you don’t know much about whats happening here in Africa. May be you need to come over and see what the US is doing. But even after that, nothing will change. Its true that 80-90% of Africans hate Americans and America. Thats because of what the government there does to us here. But who cares anyway. whats America anyway. Its a few Europians, Asians, AND Africans. A mixture. Which part should we blame then… A lot of fingers would point to the Europians. Anyway. Whatever is happening is happening and we are getting wasted lives down here. And guess what… No one cares… And guess what more. They are trying to tell us that we are haveing a life and that we deny it… LOL. Ok whatever you say!!

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Please do not act like I am not a well educated person. Yes my history of ghana is very limited to a few spurts in class high school and college. I am not saying I know everything or anywhere near, I was just saying the little I know and not act like I know more, and I also wont run to wikipedia to act like I know more on a subject.

Also I see that you are pretty steadfast in your opinion, and I have seen you have later posted a couple more links and seem to be fairly versed in this area, however posting 2 of your 3 references in your post to me from wikipedia really didnt get me going.

In terms of limited resources I was talking about Ghana’s dependence on export of largely just cocoa and gold. So when cocoa price dropped so did Ghana’s economy. Once again I know your idea is different, so be it.

In terms of economic policy protectionism is good in certain situations but for very limited times, the US did use many economic protections in its infacy to get a foothold in the global market.

The US economy does have a negative trade balance, our industry is a service industry. However we would not be able to survive the way we do without heavy outside investment especially in today’s economy from China.

Honestly I have no clue about the tariff situation in Ghana so cant comment on it, but cocoa being a major export your not going to get much above the bare minimum for it, gold should be doing well perhaps Ghana is upping their gold mining, however I have no clue I am uneducated!!!

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US balance of Trade

The U.S. trade deficit for June narrowed by $200 million to $64.8 billion last month, the Commerce Department reported Thursday.

The 0.3 percent decline, which was generally what was expected, stems from a $2.4 billion increase in exports of goods and services and a $2.2 billion increase in imports of goods and services.

The goods deficit with China rose from $17.7 billion in May to $19.7 billion in June. Exports to China decreased $200 million to $4.3 billion, while imports increased $1.8 billion to $24.1 billion.

It narrowed but its still there…in the billions.

US trade barriers still exist, they are a form of protectionism in a different guise.

Trade deficits can lead to the loss of jobs, such as the loss of 1.5 million U.S. jobs to China between 1989 and 2003.

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No one will listen. As long as everyone is sitting home and happy then he won’t bother.

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Yes you a right. I gonna quit now.

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Honestly I dont even know what we are arguing anymore and it certainly doesnt have to do with why white athletes should forget about the 100m.

First off I was speaking of investment by chinese in america which is not the same as investment in regards to gdp. Honestly I dont know why we are talking about gdp at all as its correlation to actual wealth is also fairly weak and new indicators are being used to measure wealth.

Trade deficit also has very little to do with job loss in America specifically and around the world as well to a decent extent and that type of thought is what causes depression and economic instability in the first place. Employment has more to do with demand within the country and valuation of currencies. Employment has been fairly stable and unemployment has actually gone up and down and as the trade deficiet has shifted. As you know unemployment and the trade deficiet were low at the end of the clinton administration but that was one instance and not the rule.

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I, like Pope, am not going to try and say I know everything about Ghana-US relations, but you cannot convince me that African people cannot build their own factories and infastructure. Why can’t they? Because the US won’t help? Why? Please tell me hyhow the US is physically keeping them from setting up shop, setting up more, better quality universities, etc. because I would love to know (not being sarcastic at all).

Protectionist policies? For what? What is the US protecting in cocoa and gold or anything else Ghana has to offer right now? Look at what the US imports, it is mostly things from 3rd world countries (besides the ikea furniture and the german cars, of course ;)) like China and the like. It makes sense to invest in China when they have OVER A BILLION PEOPLE. Again, that is not the US keeping Ghana down–Ghana has a choice of things they can do. Money talks and if they offer something at a significantly better price or service, someone is going to take it period, that’s the beauty of the world economy (over 90% of the time).

On the topic of Africans hating Americans and the US, I am curious where this is as I have met well over 200 Africans of all ages in the last year, mostly from Angola and Mozambique, and few had any poor comments about America and fewer (under 5) had problems with Americans. Now, these were African immigrants to European countries (mostly one, you can guess which one by the Africans I met and interacted with, befriended, and trained with on a daily basis), so maybe that biased them a bit, but I don’t think the probability is too good of that many people hating America with such a passion (especially white people as you say, since many had bigger problems with other Africans than white people!).

I would also love to hear more about you talking about Americans losing jobs–see this is where you miss it again. It is changing markets and industries. When American companies or workers can no longer compete, you must evolve or die, period. The US has virtual unemployment at under 5%, rivaled only by very small socialist countries, so the job market isn’t doing too bad. Don’t want to hear about these so called crappy jobs either since there are thousands more jobs than Americans can fill and the amount one makes in a year is easily substantial enough to live on and more than what the average man will make in most countries (not sure of many jobs either that pay minimum wage beyond the first month or two).

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Mart76,

Again, I disagree with the education thing and the athletic thing. In the end, I’m saying that race is an illusion, we all came from the same place, and until we understand that, we will always have these “perseived” differences. Sure, there are differences in people, but it doesn’t follow pigment of skin lines. There are big, small, etc. in all races. So until people start trying to get this “birth right” stuff out of here, we will always have some things like this popping up. Its up to the individual to decide what they are going to do and how hard they are going to work for anything, not the beliefs of others or some “birth right” crap.

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Thats not what your posts implied initially; you should not make such statements without really understanding atleast the basic factors.

Lets draw a line under all this now…

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I know you try to be sincere but your arguements are from your own thinking and have no basis or prior knowledge about whats happening on the ground. I think its clear for all to see from your comments that you are blinded by patriotism and are very jingoistic in your outlook.

You refuse to look at the whole picture.

To sum up in order for you to be rich you have to buy very cheaply from a poorer country. If you allow those poorer countires to truelly develop and diversify into making things other than producing cash crop goods like Cocoa and raw non-value added goods like Gold then… you will have no one to buy your cheap raw materials for your economy to be sooo bouyant.

That then makes those poor countries who are told what to produce, look unintelligent.

I am sure that even you can understand that.

The point is if everyone was well off then America would be poorer, its like the energy can neither be made or lost its just converted from one form to the next rule.

In economics you can say that the worlds resources are limited, for someone to be rich another has to be poor. To look intelligent another has to look stupid. Its like ying yang, plus and minus. Equilibrium is not possible in its truest sense.

To sum up, the US economists and strategists have figured this out and execute it through the policies of the World Bank; this manifests itself in policies like structural re-adjustment and debt to third world countries. By controlling the debt of third world countries (majority black) they can control global inflation , taking heat out of the world economy. By controlling what is produced by these countries, you know exactly how much input is being put in the system. You are able to control jobs and wealth around the World.

Now with China, the US could not control it, obviously because of its own controls and so when the top level of the Chinese leadership decided to become a more capitalist-socialist state, it meant competition for the US. To allow Africa to develop without check would cause economic disquilibrium because the wealth that would have gone to its traditional recipients would be missed.

Get off this Ghana-US tip. I used that as an example I could have easily used another African country or somewhere else. So stoptalking like I am argueing from that angle, its not about nations.

I hope you catch my drift.

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You can’t be saying it’s a zero-sum game. Clearly the total amount of wealth in the world has not remained the same thoughout history. BTW, I’m actually reading both Globalization and it’s Discontents by Joseph Stiglitz and George Soros on Globalization. I recommend both to anyone interested in this stuff.