I think the frequency of lifts is a bit more variable and individualistic. I have made gains with either once or twice per week and a few pretty big guys, who are quite strong, on some other forums I frequent, train the major lifts once per week and have gained incredibly well.
On the size/strength thing. This I have always wondered about and with countless hours of researching over the years, also reading texts from Komi and Enoka, and then finally really digging into some of the referenced studies, I feel I have a pretty good reason on ‘why’ it’s usually found that lower reps favor neural gains over hypertrophy.
It relates more to contractile activity, specifically, calcium or Ca2+ fluctuations. Recently I found a great study on this, where the variables were tested really accurately. p38, one of the main signals in hypertrophy was more related to high levels of calcium acculation, from high levels of activity, than over peak tension as was previously thought. This means, working ‘hard’ into a fatigued state is more important for hypertrophy then many have recently given credit. Enoka mentions in his text “Neuromechanics of Human Movement” that strength gains always have a neural component but not always a hypertrophic component. It’s looking like the ‘stimulation’ at least, of the hypertrophic component is related to how much work you do with a specific tension rather than just achieving that tension. More of an energetic type permission.
Logically and physiologically, ‘what’ you do probably determines the type of stimulation more than when or how often you execute the training. The frequency would more determine whether you had time to recover, or too much time which could lead to regression.
What is the key to getting stronger without getting bigger?
Training within relative strength parameters (stay under 5 reps), and even more importantly, use DIET to control your bodyweight. Truthfully you could pull a bodybuilding routine out of flex and go at it and you’d probably get stronger without getting bigger as long as you didn’t eat above maintenance calories.
However, just like hypertrophy, the adaptations leading to strength gain simply work better with excess food. Most people will tend to be strongest at any given bodyweight if they let their weight cycle a bit…let your bodyweight go up by 5-7% and then come back down. You’ll be stronger then if you just tried to stay at the same bodyweight.
Joel: You are partly right the entire organism does get stronger but not much and eventually will accomodate to the stress much faster when you are only lifting once per week as compared to lifting twice per week.
Ron S: You are partly right as well in that lifting once per week can get you significant short term gains; however, this is IMHO do to severe overtraining on a twice a week schedule which somebody then decides to do to a once a week schedule and make strength gains. I noticed this myself when I was 18 and never heard of periodization at the time; therefore, I would lift MxS all the time twice per week for each exercise and I eventually platued. My best friend told me to do each exercise once a week to switch things up and I would make more gains. So I starting doing bench and etc. once a week and got even stronger than before and I made huge gains before platueing again! The problem wasn’t that I was lifting twice per week but that I was severely overtraining and switching to once per week allowed me to recover from the overtraining and supercompensate (sort of like a shock mesocycle). It can be argued that if I had a periodized training plan that I never would have hit the first platue! However, it can also be argued that switching things to once a week for a while allowed me to make the strength gains! The problem with the second theory is that it states that a decrease in volume will lead to strength which is a fallacy; unless, you are severly overtraining to begin with! Just think of switching to once a week as a regeneration week or weeks/months (in my case).
In terms of making rapid strength gains in a short of a time as possible you must do each exercise at least twice per week.
One thing I guess I worded wrong, or not completely enough rather…
Anyone can make 2x per week work and once per week work. It depends on ‘what’ you do in the gym. Where I’m at though, 2x per week, IF both workouts are of decent quality, just wear me down quickly. If I go 1x per week, I can go on and on indefinately and make decent gains.
Now for a short while, 2x gives much faster gains. Which makes sense, if one can recover, more stimulation will = more product.
But now I"m getting old and crusty so a bit slower gains that last longer fit me better
What sort of drill would you use as a DE flexor chain exercise? For most people, I can’t see too many people having the strength to safely use a chinning movement in true DE fashion. Rowing motions have the issue of a bar coming and hitting you in the chest. This leaves medicine ball overhead smashes, which also have a risk, if used with too heavy a ball. I am quite new to the practice of grappling, but through lots of observation, I have not seen any throws or holds that are reliant on maximal dynamic ability. The clinches, holds and throws all appear, to me, to be more dependent on maximal strength (static and dynamic) and static strength endurance. Let me know if I am missing something, as I am also playing around with my training concepts.
Pulling motions can be tricky when it comes to explosive actions. You realy have to get creative with them. A couple things that have worked well for me include:
1.)Use a cambered bar for bent-over rows (or a T-bar row machine)
2.)Use cable machines for single arm actions
3.)Accelerate the weight to the top of the motion, drop the weight, and catch it at the bottom of the motion, followed by a fast acceleration back to the top (deceleration towards the top can be as important as acceleration, and catching the weight at the bottom will recruit a large amount of stabalizer muscles)
4.) be creative
As for the strength issues that you bring up about grappling, the throws, holds, and clinches that you witness may seem like just holding on and lifting. But, there is a huge amount of explosive strength and explosive isometrics that require a quick rate of force developement. At the world class level, most throws are performed over a small arc, so it doesn’t seem like a whole lot of explosion is needed. When training the upper body, use a lot of explosive isometrics, and train the majority of dynamic actions from the hips. Wrestling is often won or lost at the hips.
This is just plain false. I lift twice a week and rarely do the same exercises. What basis do you have to make such a claim, especially when there are many examples to the contrary.
If this were true, then why would WSB switch ME exercises every 2 weeks (an idea taken from Russian weightlifters). They (WSB) say that when you switch to a new exercise, ynew neuro-muscular connections are made and CNS fatigue is prevented.
From my experience, the true answer is somewhere in the middle. I don't see how simply changing exercises will do anything to prevent CNS fatigue, but when they change to a new exercise the first week the intensity is usually not as high, which will help. As I see it the main benefit to the constant cycling of exercises is to address the lifter's specific weaknesses, which is why they are called "special exercises". A slight change in an exercise, like using a saftey squat bar makes no difference to the impact on your CNS.
But to say that you have to perform a lift 2x a week to make “any gains” is pure idiocy. There is a great deal of carryover between different lifts. If an intermediate (not elite, like you :eek: ) increases his squat from 300 pounds to 400 pounds, his deadlift and clean will also improve, albeit not as much. This is not just strengthening of the organism, because you are stregthening the same muscles. Organism strength would be increases lower body strength leading to upper body strength gains. There is a great deal of overlap between the demands of each lift. This really is a very elementary concept. This is why Reverse-Hypers and GHR’s may help your deadlift or squat. When most people do an exercise like the squat certain muscles will be worked more than others, depending on factors like height and body structure. This can cause plateaus, which to overcome you will have to bring up your weak muscles.
It’s also why triathletes don’t need to spend 2 hours swimming, 2 hours cycling, and 2 hours running each day. There is a great deal of similarities between the three events, in this case aerobic and muscular endurance.
Once again you are mistaken in what you thought my post was referring to! I never said doing two different exercises that work the same muscle group would not yield strength gains! :eek: I only said that doing them once a week would not yield much if any gains in strength. I then in later posts gave examples as to when lifting once per week would make you stronger.
I don’t know? Why nitpick and attack my posts instead of actually reading the whole thread topic and seeing what lead up to my posts?
I only was stating the fact that lifting twice a week on a periodized schedule will yield you vastly superior strength gains then lifting once a week! This is just common sense! The reason I put in “The Same Exercise” in the post that you replied to, was bc it was easier to understand for most people. Contrary to your opinion most people are not on the WSBC template; in fact, I doubt most athletes (that are not powerlifters) have heard of it outside forums on the internet.
BTW, WSBC does do DE and ME exercises for the same muscle groups throughout the week so that in fact, they are working those specific muscle groups twice a week!
P.S. I know that changing exercises can lead possible strength gains, Hell Zatsiosrky mentions this in his text and the Russians found it useful in the long run! Hell I’ve even mentioned this in a different thread, http://www.charliefrancis.com/community/showpost.php?p=80932&postcount=4 :eek:
All I have to go by is what you write in your post. I can’t read your mind! Regarding lifting twice a week better than once you are absolutely right. Zatsiorsky states that lifting less in one session, but having more sessions leads to better strength gains.
I am not a Westside devotee, I am not a powerlifter. I never stated that most people were on westside template. Don’t try to put down my knowledge or label me as something I’m not. You could have just admitted you didn’t type what you meant, but you had to be a defensive little bitch! EEK!
How do you guys feel about high school athletes lifting legs once a week rather than twice? Defranco suggests this in his WS4SB template, along with one Max effort and one Repetition effort day. His reasoning is these athletes are already stressing the legs with running. I am speaking mostly of the 4 sport athletes who are competing year round, but still are trying to maximize strength gains.
Because most of our athletes are in this category, and I am the only one who designs and implements the workouts, even the out of season athletes follow this routine. However, I throw some low intensity plyos and short speed work before the upper days. If I have to pick, should I be having the out of season athletes doing 2 lower and one upper instead? I suppose rotating week by week could be a solution?
Lower body strength is more important in terms of speed development then upper body strength. Would you rather have a guy that can squat 500lbs or one who can bench 315lbs? This a rhetorical question so the answer should be obvious.
BTW, the strength you obtain from the squat will help your clean.
I don’t see why Defranco, doesn’t just put the speedwork (or whatever is so taxing on the legs that you can only have one lower body day per week) immediately before weights. Honestly, I think it’s more out of convenience/schematics than anything, but I really don’t care either way.
