In the the first equation mass is the predominant factor with acceleration being slow, in the second mass is minimal while acceleration is maximal, in the third equation both are minimal, and in the fourth equation both are maximal! Seeing as the first two are the only viable training methods currently available AMT with bands being released at the bottom would bring the fourth equation somewhat into play! This is where it gets tricky and why nobody has been able to solve this equation of doing a 1RM with really fast acceleration! Bands that are released at the bottom would provide for the faster acceleration downwards in excess of 9.81m/s. If you drop any two objects (assume air is a none factor because in powerlifting it is) no matter what their weight is they will fall at the 9.81m/s. Therefore the only way to increase the total force is to increase the acceleration of a heavy object such as a barbell with wts that could be 1RM (the intensity could be lower, remember this is just one example). Increasing force this way will shift the entire force-velocity curve upwards and to the left! The first equation shifts the curve upwards but not necessarily to the left bc the velocity end is hardly shifted upwards at all (you will see some benefit in your med ball throws). The second equation apparently shifts the whole curve upward and to the left but does not shift it upwards higher than the first equation. The third equation doesn’t factor to increase the velocity end or the force end greater than the other two. As far as I understand it CF would train both ends of the force-velocity curve and this is why BJ was such an athletic powerhouse. However, Imagine if one could shift the curve higher than the first 3 equations and the athlete could get stronger and faster at the same time! I believe CF would say something like “since you can’t do this then why waste time on trying to” and I agree with him and that is why DE days of the westside won’t produce any signifcant gains for athletes at least not in the short run beginners! At the elite level the DE days of westside will help teach compensatory accleration as well as motor unit recruitment and this may lead to lifters achieving higher 1RM’s in the long run. For a sprinter like BJ I believe CF shifted his force-velocity curve upwards at the force end with strength training much higher than using any other method and then regular sprinting with some resistance such has the isorobic exerciser and just regular sprinting would shift the velocity end upwards so that BJ maximized the force-velocity curve better than anyone ever has in the realm of sprinting!
That being said, I believe olympic lifters fall into the fourth equation somewhat bc the accelerate the bar in less than a second in the clean! That is why olympic lifts should be included in your training repetoire! However, more evidence with OL and sprinting is needed to further validate this. I don’t need further evidence bc I believe it works! But it would be nice to see how much and where along the force-velocity curve these shifts would be!
You’ve overloaded my brain- but that isn’t the job it used to be! The only thing I’d like to throw out there is that whatever place on the F/T curve various training means occupy, the role of each must also be judged by its frequency/volume/significance in the overall scheme of training.
Ouch I feel dizzy :eek: I am gonna have to look this over a few more times!!! Both supers’ post and CF’s…thank you for the time to write that now I must go study it or die at my computer from a brain anerism? is that how you spell it, man I am retarded, I mean SPECIAL!!! Yeahhh!
Thanks
Supervenom, on more question…I am not sure if you have instant access to the book supertraining but in it on page 219, there is a drawing of a “plyometric bench press mashine” have you or anyone seen this??? I think it would allow for a lot of the things you spoke about in in terms of having a greater eccentric phase due to dropping the platform and a speedy explosive concentric phase…I also have seen very short clips of schroeder using a machine just like this. The books says that this machine " 1.develops maximal dynamic force very rapidly.
2.the magnitude of this maximum is signifigantly larger than that produced by other methods.3. A large maximal force is achieved without the use of additional resistance.
4.Change from eccentric to concentric work occurs far more rapidly than with other methods
5. The signifigant elastic energy accumulated (without additional resistance) during the amortisation phase produces muscular work of a greater power in the thrust phase and faster muscular contraction , which may be inferred from the greater height attained by the body during the subsuquent upward drive" …then it says…“Thus, stimulation of muscular tension by absorption of the energy of the athlete’s falling body or a training apparatus can produce a large force of muscular contraction without using weights (which is impossible with other means of mechanical stimulation). This is acheived not only without decreasing the speed of muscular coontraction, but even increasing it in comparison with the usual resistance methods.”
So knowing this would it make sense to replace dynamic effort day with either a bench machine like this or plyo bench presses or Upper body altitude drops with plyo pushups? example 8x2 plyo benches or 8-16x 1 rep of altitude push up drop with a rebound push up following absorbtion of bodyweight…what does everyone think
I just looked it up. My question here is what is your aim?
To bench more?
To increase the stimulus?
What effect will the “leftward F/T shift” of an equal or higher stimulus from a training element that would not normally be so close to sprinting have on sprinting itself?
CF , I was mainly speaking of lifting more weight!
CF wrote “What effect will the “leftward F/T shift” of an equal or higher stimulus from a training element that would not normally be so close to sprinting have on sprinting itself?”
In terms of this having an effect on sprinting I do not know? I may need to grasp these theories better before I can make quality points but as a guess…If you shift the F/T curve to the left wouldn’t there be some carryover effect to sprinting If you do depth jumps with a rebound jump over a hurdle or onto a box does that do the same kind of thing as this machine except for the lower body? Let me study this stuff some more and get back to you!
If you’re strong and slow the DE days will benefit you no matter what. Bands will not make you slower!!! That is complete and utter bullshit. If the actual speed of the concentric action was really that important than we should all do unweighted jump squats attached to bands suspended from the ceiling. I have gone from not being able to touch the rim on a vj to dunking from vert, due in large part to the addition of bands to my squats. This is with no plyos.
Yes I have the latest edition of that book; however, this has already been covered either in this thread or are the thread “Are Cleans The Exercise To Do”. Your still not understanding me. What you want is,
F=MA not F=Ma
The machine you describe is still focused more towards the Force end instead of shifting the entire curve upwards albeit it does a better job then regular bench press. All you should know that plyo pushups and this machine have increased Adam Archuleta’s bench press to well over 500 lbs. That does still does not change my argument! Although it should be noted that if I was an athletic director I would buy this machine post haste! A better machince is a regular smith press machine with a flat table like surface that the athlete can push of off. This means that where you put the weigths on in a regular barbell is still the same; however, in the middle you have a flat square metal piece where you push of off and catch the weight! I believe shroeder has this bc I saw the machine first hand when Archuleta was using it and this was demonstrated on NFL monday night football!
F=MA
You want there to be high resistance and high acceleration which is impossible by todays methods unless you use the method I described in my previous posts where you have bands attached to a broomstick or better yet a dowel that is placed underneith the bench press. The spotter steps on this dowel to which the bands are attached before the lifter takes the barbell in the bench press off. Now as soon as the barbell touches the athletes chest and the athlete is in the concentric contraction, that is when you step of off the bands and its just the barbell plus whatever initial weight he had on there!
In fact, in Supertraining they never even present the equation F=MA! The closest they come is F=KR where K is some constant and R is some resistance! We all know that increase the mass M in the equation will work the Force part of the curve to a bigger extent but the acceleration A has to be increased to shift the entire curve up and to the left better then F=Ma and F=mA combined together! If that’s possible! Its a little hard to imagine a training scheme that would help a sprinter improve by doing heavy explosive squats with the manner in which I detailed it! Wait a minute no its not! If the gravity is increased downwards in the squat and then let go to it its normal level then the athlete can obtain an equal and opposite reaction to the downward force! All I can say for certain is that this band/hypergravity method would take your normal body limit reserves onto a much higher point! What I mean is that the body will able to involuntary or voluntarily use more motor units and RFD then any other previously imployed method in the correct biomechanical way! I.E. proper neuromuscular coordination! You can imagine this method in vertical jumping bc has soon has the athlete does the eccentric contraction his body will recruit more motor fibres and better RFD in a biomechancial way better than had he just did squats! The reactivity component would also be enhanced!
Definitely not for a powerlifter. I myself rarely bench but instead do pushups many times in a dynamic fashion, other times for reps, other times with added weight and my feet on a high box. A great way to do plyometric push ups is with a doubled mini band around your upper arms so it’s almost touching your chest (the exact opposite of having it around your back). You will be flying off the ground.
Ok I keep seeing F=Ma and F=mA and saying you want to develop both concurrently correct? Well is this not conjugate periodization(still trying to get that one down)? They use the DE movements to develop the F=mA and the ME days to develop F=Ma. And if you watch the combine you will see several athletes who have done well via the DE method. I use plyo’s instead of DE weighted movements(although I am considering going halfsies on them).
I would follow your general scheme seeing thatt even if you could develop a way where F=MA then the CNS depletion would be huge! So I would imagine that at best you would stop using these protocols at least some time before the main competition!
No matter how hard you try with bands the down side is the rebound velocity and the concurrent upward concentric lift being restricted by the bands! In other words 50-50 isn’t going to do it! At least not comparable to the protocol I mentioned where one could do F=MA and do say 85%M and say a high % of A.
Would this be 18.64m/s, 28.43m/s, 37.28m/s that I don’t know? All I do know in order to overcome gravity you are pushing a greater force then F=Ma in traditional stength lifting. Gravity will make the object fall at 9.81m/s if you completely let go then catch at the bottom (say bench press) and push back up again; however, the Force has different proportions of Ma on the concurrent concentric contraction. This occurs bc we all know that we can’t push the bar with weight up has fast as it came down! Therefore the A part in the equation has changed and on the upward phase it is close to zero (think of isometrics or when you struggle to get a lift completed). In athletics, however, we all know that the A part is the predominant factor in sprinting! Therefore, it is the A that must be increased! Note: That doing this means increased force on the downward phase which one can think of as eccentric loading; however, on the upward phase with the hypergravity bar returning to the 9.81m/s (Read my other posts) the rebound velocity will be increased and this will lead the upwards phase to a point where the A is higher than traditional means! What is the optimal M or in other words what should the intensity of the lift be? 75%, 85%, 95%? That I don’t know but I do know that It must be high as well as the Acceleration A!
Alternatively you can use the CFTS template and use just the hypergravity vest when doing plyos, with the vest shutoff as soon as you hit the ground! Or you can use bands to propell you really fast downwards and then have the bands let go at the bottom when you do a vertical jump is another thing! With the hypergravity vest you can do multiple jumps therefore, giving you an edge!
Remember the F=MA may not be better then what CF does where he works M and A in the F=MA equation albeit at different times throughout the day so it is not really F=MA that he is working but rather F=mA (sprinting) and then F=Ma (weights). He first sprints which increase the force through a high A and then later does weights which increase the F through a high M; therefore, working both ends of the Force-velocity continuum. I only propose that working the F=MA might be better although I am not certain?
Another possible scenario is to sprint fully with the hypergravity vest in a NASA facility where the vest is only activated while you are in the air and immediately shuts off 1 inch prior to the ground! Then again for this to work you have to have tremendous F just to get off the ground in the first place! :eek:
In regards the WSBC, yes working explosively at a lower percentage say 50-60% of 1RM will shift the curve in the velocity end higher than doing 1RM but not more than doing Med balls which are 10%RM. Maybe if Defranco used Med Balls like CF or Al Vermail he might get better results!
Combine tests consist of body measurements, physical tests and position-specific drills. Physical tests are used to determine a player’s size, speed, quickness and strength. Position drills allow players to demonstrate their ability in fundamental skill areas necessary for their position.
Body Measurements
Height
Height and weight measurements determine a player’s size. Height is measured to 1/8th of an inch accuracy.
Weight
Weight is measured to the nearest pound.
Body Photo
The body portrait provides a visual image of a player’s body type and build. Players are photographed from the front wearing shorts only.
Hand Span
Spread hand is measured from tip of thumb to tip of pinky.
Arm Length
Extended arm is measured from shoulder blade to tip of middle finger.
Physical Tests
40 Yard Dash
The 40 yard dash is a measure of straight ahead speed. Each player runs twice. Two times are recorded for each run. The best time is used for scoring purposes. Timing is done by pro scouts.
20 Yard Short Shuttle
The 20 yard short shuttle is a measure of quickness. Each player is timed twice, once to the left and once to the right. Both times are recorded. The best time is scored.
Vertical Jump
The vertical jump is a measure of lower body strength. The test is conducted using the Vertec measuring device. Each player jumps twice. The highest jump is scored.
225lb. Bench Press
The 225 pound bench press is a measure of upper body strength. Each player completes as many repetitions as possible.
Hmmm so AMT would increase the vetical jump. While CF’s program would increse the 40y dash. The 225lb bench press is just plain stupid. The 20y shuttle? That I am not to sure of, but I doubt DE days are gonna get it done!
well if i remember correctly, cf says all strength training is general correct? So general development of RFD would carry over to events requiring RFD, correct? And so on…
Not if it RFD is developed in the improper NEUROMUSCULAR COORDINATION PATTERN!
Case and point: Look at swiss balls, your trying to do a squat on one! How the fuck how on God’s green earth will this help you in sprinting? In this condition when does the athlete push off an unstable surface or ball full of air! A similar comparison can be made with bands being utilized throughout the entire motion!
Side note: I wonder if they used Davies hot air to pump those swiss balls bc only he would be renegade enough with the mental toughness to do so?
Which is not a problem with band training. Who’s to say that it’s IMPROPER, certainly not someone with limited experience using them. Accomodating resistance does enhance some exercises. What do pullups, rows, cleans, snatches, jerk/push press all have in common? They all naturally accomodate resistance, they are also among the best strength training exercises for athletes in adition to bench, squat, deadlift, etc. However bench, squats, and deadlifts do not have this trait, the movement is hard at the start of the lift and easy at the end, thus they can be improved in certain aspects by the proper use of chains and bands. There are other ways to accomodate resistance in these lifts:bounce out of the hole in a squat, off your chest in bench, or off the ground for deads for multiple reps, or you can do bench throws or jump squats. However these are 1) not specific to powerlifting at all 2)dangerous if too much weight is used. My Neuromuscular Coordination is perfect, just ask my competition
