Charlie, what kind of start do you use with your flying and in-out 20’s? I assume standing?
They are always started from a standing start as this reduces the stress of raising the C/G.
YO dudes found this article on Bands thought it might spark some interest!
Bands and Speed-Strength Improvements: Bench Press RFD Test
By Mike Berry, President/Owner of Power-Up USA, Inc., NSCA-CPT
Raw strength is a very important physical ability for a firefighter to posses. Related to that ability, and maybe even more important – is the ability to apply that strength at a high rate (speed-strength) and to do so repeatedly. It follows that any training method that can help develop that ability would be an important part of the training process for firefighters.
The graph below depicts the changes in Bench Press 1-RM and in Bench Press Average Rate of Force Development (RFD) for Fire Cadets (N-8) through four test periods (4-7). The Bench Press 1-RM is self explanatory. You can see that the Bench Press 1-RM gains through the four test periods were relatively small. At test period 4 they had already been training for five months, and as would be normally expected, the majority of their total strength improvements had already been made up to this point.
At test period 4, I began testing their speed-strength or RFD by having them do as many reps as they could, as fast as they could, for as long as they could with 50% of their current 1-RM Bench Press. We recorded the reps done in 15 seconds, 30 seconds and to exhaustion. I computed the RFD by dividing the reps performed in 15s by 15s and so forth. I then took the square root of that product x 50% of 1-RM x 2 to get the final RFD number. For example: Cadet A did 14 reps in the first 15 seconds; 14/15 = .933 squared = .966 x 50% of 1-RM x 2 = 193.2 pounds a second. Depicted below is the average of the 15 seconds and 30 seconds portions of the Bench Press RFD test (15s RFD + 30s RFD / 2).
The important thing for me to point out here is that it was at test period 4 that they were introduced to free-weight variable resistance training using the BNS Bands. You can see by the graph that their average RFD improved at a rate similar to the Bench Press 1-RM from test 4 to 5. From test 5 to 6 the RFD improved at a much greater rate then the Bench Press 1-RM rate of improvement. However, the thing that really stands out to me is how the average RFD continued to climb between the last two test periods …even though the Bench Press 1-RM’s did not improve at all.
If I understand the numbers on the vertical scale to mean the average 1RM lifted at each stage then look at the average or mean 1RM throughout the entire period! Those guys 1RM only measured between 225-232.5lbs in those periods! Hell I can train anbody to beat those numbers in a comparable 6 month period without bands! Your telling me that these guys 1RM only rose 7.5 lbs mean in two period which I’ll roughly equate to three months! That’s just ridiculous!
Then again If I am wrong about the vertical scale then just disregard this post.
I am speaking about sprinters.
Maybe this will help you understand,
F=Ma, F=mA,
Specificity of Velocity Movement
From “Supertraining” (pg29) by Mel Siff
…low velocity isokinetic training distinctly enhances low velocity strength, but has minimal effect on high velocity strength. Although high velocity isokinetic training similarly improves high velocity strength, it offers a better transfer effect to low velocity strength than low velocity training does to high velocity strength…
Since the force-velocity curve for muscle contraction reveals that force decreases with velocity of concentric contraction, high velocity training may not produce a large enough force to stimulate maximal adaptation in the muscle. [b]The special advantage of high velocity concentric training is that it conditions the nervous system, whereas lower velocity training is better suited to devlopment of muscle hypertrophy and slow speed strength.
The force-velocity curve for eccentric contraction, however, shows that eccentric force increases with increasing velocity, thereby suggesting that high speed eccentric training (e.g. as encountered during the amortisation phase of plyometrics) may be very effective for stimulating muscular adaptation[/b]."
That is why one would want to increase the velocity downwards say in the bench press and this can be achieved with bands but then the bands should be released on the concentric contraction.
hence, F=MA
Supervenom…
Just to dumb this down a little for the sake of my retarded ass, you are saying that bands are good for Powerlifting but bad for sprinter/explosive athletes because it teaches improper RFD muscular contractions? I have been skimming all of this stuff and will continue to until I fully understand it but is that what you are saying??? If that is what you are saying, would it be useful to use the bands to increase their strength and RFD (even if it is improper) and then take the increase in strength and re-teach the athlete proper RFD firing with this heightened strength output??? This is probably a dumb idea and it would probably be inefficient to build up RFD in the wrong context but could this be done…hope this makes sense!!! 
I believe the whole argument with bands is that they are better utilized in powerlifting which is on the left side of the force-velocity Curve F=Ma; hence, any gains made with bands would benefit these athletes the most. Bands works by making it harder to push through each angle on the concentric portion of the lift. Therefore, for powerlifting it is make a person stronger at each point of the concentric Force-velocity curve. On the eccenctric Force-velocity curve they get faster acceleration which is what you want.
Two observations I noticed. First sets use bench press for example, even in the sport of powerlifting why do you need to be strong at every possible angle when we all know that humans biomechanically are strongest at the top in the concentric phase and weakest at the bottom. If you can get past the sticking point say the first 6 inches at the bottom then you can lockout your arms and complete the lift. If you are weaker at higher points of the lift then it is susceptible that you have weak triceps and perhaps strengthening this particular weakness will help you lockout. In any case, whatever your sticking point is; it doesn’t matter, bc your sticking point can be overcome by the use of isometrics or just bench pressing in your sticking point range (this saves you energy from completing the entire lift). Then after you have resolved your sticking point problem you can go back to benching with the full ROM.
The second problem I see with bands for a powerlifter is that you are wasting your energy on utilizing bands throughout the complete ROM. In other words, it will take more energy with bands to complete the lift if you compare them to a barbell without bands but with the same amount of weight; however, WSBC does equates the barbell plus weight lets say 315 pounds plus 90lbs of band tension at the bottom and 185 band tension at the top (315+185=500). Now they would compare the 315 + 90=405 at the bottom with a weighted barbell equal to 405lbs (i.e. the barbell with 4 45plates each side). This comparison in terms of energy demands is hard to make and only a qualified person in energy demands could make such a comparison. In my view, you should compare the bands + barbell weight at the bottom point of the lift which in this case is 405lbs but only 315lbs actual freeweight to somebody who is doing the bench press without bands so this person is doing 315lbs throught the entire ROM (I believe this is the only true way to compare the two methods). So the results are quite obvious that the person using the bands will use up more energy in the same amount of reps and sets. The energy spent in moving the 315lbs on the concentric contraction I feel can be better utilized by doing regular bench press with assitance exercises or by sequencing regular bench press with limited ROM bench press (remember the bench press only being done in the sticking point ROM).
Then again training with bands could train the energy demands with respect to powerlifting perhaps better than other methods.
Remember my comparison of bands is different than the WSBC methods of comparison. It should be noted that to them resistance is the same with or without bands and this is what the WSBC arguments are (keep in mind that the band does give different band tension at top and bottom but the resistance changes throughout the lift). I compared the bands with only the freeweight with or without bands bc I felt that at the bottom ROM is the one that really matters not the top! Also when lifting heavy weights you can use CAT and its doubtful that at 90% of 1RM you can throw the barbell higher than a couple of inches so this should not even be an issue. You can use CAT where you are pushing as hard and as fast as you can.
I believe some athlete use plyo pushups in the same day so that the MU recruitment pattern isn’t to messed up. Oh and Yes, I have stated in previous threads that bands could be used in the GPP phase. In fact, I believe WSBC only uses bands for an eightweek period as well. They then switch to other stuff and return to bands later on. For a track and field athlete I would only use bands for elite level athletes in the GPP phase, for intermediate athletes only in an 8 week period so as to teach the athletes CAT which is probably done really well with bands seeing as the athlete has to push throught the entire ROM.
But remember one thing, I would not use bands for any elite athlete including sprinters unless I first plateued with my current lifting scheme and even then I would only use bands as a last cast scenario. Correct me if I’m wrong but I believe this is the reason why Siff (on Pg 401)in “Supertraining” mentions bands as reason 28 on a total of 28 possible ways to overcome barriers.
I’m a sprinter as well. Just a mention off powerlifters doesn’t change the content of my post
Nor should you. Debate what you believe in. 
Now that you’ve got me thinking about it, I really use the bands sparingly now. This is also because my Power Clean is now such a high percentage (75%) of my squat (unless my squat has gone up a ton as well, which is doubtful).The speed is obviously still there, (you can’t do a power clean slow) but much more weight is being used. I have improved my explosive strength deficit so greatly, that I no longer need dynamic squats for strength-speed. But I may add a slight amount of band tension (<20%) to regular squatting just to ensure CA, and maybe to spite you 
I may also cycle them back in when my Clean starts to plateau.
And just to spite you, I might actually buy bands and use them in a couple of
months!
LOL
I assumed when making this statement that TUT is usually done at maximal or near maximal levels. I now see that Shroeder does this with his athletes at 40% and this is much safer; in fact, training in TUT and in the deep joint angle will actually prevent future injuries so I would be a supporter of this method as long as gradual steps are made!
Look at the pic by asd123, http://www.charliefrancis.com/community/showthread.php?t=8461
From, http://archive.profootballweekly.com/content/archives2001/features_2001/nawrocki_061901.asp
The Athlete’s Edge
‘Evo’lutionary training: Archuleta explodes past his competition
By Nolan Nawrocki, Contributing writer
June 19, 2001
Adam Archuleta
at the Senior Bowl
Working out in front of NFL scouts in Indianapolis this past February, St. Louis Rams first-round draft pick Adam Archuleta posted some of the most impressive results for a safety in the 17-year history of the NFL Draft Combine. The 6-foot, 211-pound Archuleta ran a 4.42 40, had a 39-inch vertical jump and bench-pressed 225 pounds 31 times.
The reason Archuleta was drafted with the 20th pick in the 2001 NFL draft was no accident. Archuleta’s numbers are the result of years of sweat and training in preparation for this opportunity. As a 172-pound high school junior, Archuleta became intrigued by an article written by Jay Schroeder, founder of Evo-Sport, and felt compelled to contact him.
Schroeder developed Evo-Sport based on a principle that is widely regarded in strength and conditioning literature but rarely practiced — plyometrics. Nearly every part of the program involves absorbing and rapidly propelling force.
Rather than perform a standard bench press, Schroeder teaches athletes to explode through the movement, release the bar from their hands at the top of the lift, drop their hands to their chests, catch and explode back into the bar as fast as possible. Schroeder keeps his hands ready at all times, watching athletes to make sure they catch the bar.
What impresses Schroeder about Archuleta’s ability to bench-press 530 pounds is not the sheer mass being moved, but that it is moved in 1.09 seconds. Force on the football field is the product of mass and acceleration. Traditional weightlifting programs concentrate on moving mass regardless of how much an athlete struggles to perform the lift. Schroeder emphasizes performing lifts quickly, which increases the amount of force produced and has turned Archuleta into a havoc-wreaking machine on the football field.
When Archuleta began the Evo-Sport program, he benched 265 pounds in 2.76 seconds in the concentric or ascending phase of the lift. He squatted 273 in 3.47 seconds, ran the 40 in 4.79-4.81 and had a 26-inch vertical jump. Today, his personal best in the bench press is 530 pounds in 1.09 seconds and in the squat, 663 pounds in 1.24 seconds. At an individual workout for NFL scouts, he ran the 40-yard dash in 4.37 seconds and jumped 39 inches vertically.
I would like to see some Westside followers comment on this in terms of Archuleta’s position! As far as I can tell I haven’t seen or heard of Shroeder using bands the way Westside uses them (i.e. concentric and eccentric), but I have seen DB Hammer (which may or may not be Shroeder) use bands in the eccentric but not concentric portion of various sporting movements such as the vertical jump! Also see how the article details how Archuleta uses the bench press; contrastingly, this is much different then using the bench press with bands (being used on the concentric and eccentric portions of the lift)! 
Super,
In the Archuletta freak of training DVD, schroeder doesa actually use bands for one of his EDI benches.
Also, I thought DB Hammer was Dietrich Buchenholz, is this not correct?
I am buying that DVD very soon.
IMHO, no! I believe that is the alias for two guys with initialls D and B and those two guys I believe are the first two guys on the inno-sport website. The Hammer I believe refers to Shroeder or someone else?
hoosier I do not believe schroeder uses bands, I just watched the vid and I think you are confusing the Tendo machine with bands…the tendo machine is a small band like device that just attatches to one end, it measures speed of each rep and I think it can calculate the force applied by the rep, that is how schroder measures speed of each rep, if the rep is not perfomred fast enough, it does not count toward the daily prescribed goal…I read in an old post I think that Schroeder does not use chains or bands as he feels they make the athlete slower??? I am not sure he actually said this and what his exact reasons are if he does actually beleive that!!!