Supervenomsuperman, what you would benefit from accounting for is the fact that a true parallel squat, in which the crest of the knee and hip joint are of equal height, is not far at all from being a full squat (ass to calves).
Additionally, when squatting with a low bar position (bar across mid traps) it is virtually impossible to squat ass to calves while maintaining a tight arch in the low back, regardless of flexibility/mobility.
Also, it is no mystery that a full squat and a half squat register different force production of the knee extensors (quadriceps). The point of box squatting WSB style is to more greatly active the posterior chain muscles (hams/glutes/erectors), as well as break up the eccentric/concentric chain.
You won’t get an arguement from a Westside lifter, by trying to show that full squatting is more optimal for the quadriceps than half squatting, as this is obvious.
It is great that you are reading Zatsiorsky, however, you are misdirected in quoting him to fuel your squatting arguement.
Just a thought. Would it be optimal for a powerlifter to maybe take one micro or even a meso and squat Olympic style as change of pace from the normal power style that you guys you. It would be almost as if you rotated the olympic squat in and out if training cycles just like you do with your other special assistance excercises. When this fails to produce results you move on to somthing else.
Anthony Dittillo, who wrote two gems of a book back in the 70’s about powerlifting, OL’s and just gaining strength and muscular bulk talks about this and it got me interested. When he was a powerlifter he would use small training cycles in the offseason dedicated to OL style assistance lifts(*high pulls, rdl, OL style squats, front squats Etc.) Needless to say Anthony was one strong lifter in both the powerlifts and OL’s.
Finally, dont know if you know but the RED SOX are world champs. LOL
Frit, I have actually started to rotate full squatting into my training cycles. Although most of the Westside lifters reserve free squatting, not necessarily full squatting, to the days in which they put their gear on, I personally feel that there is value in rotating this type of squatting in just as any other ME lift which yields results. Whether this is done with a high bar or low bar position is also another variation of the lift.
I made my statement in response to your position stating why you are not an advocate of WSB. The title and content of your post and the context in which you utilize the Zatsiorsky information implies, at least to me, that you are attempting to disprove the efficacy of box squatting while promoting full squats as being superior.
My point is that Zatsiorsky is showing that the most optimal method for producing maximal force in the leg extensors is by way of full squatting. Zatsiorsky is comparing various methods of free squatting, all of which are quad dominant.
Box squatting is not quad dominant, it is posterior chain dominant, therefore, it must not be compared to full squatting or half squatting in a debate rooted in the force produced by the leg extensors. This is why I stated that it is no mystery why full squatting will more greatly develop the leg extensors than box squatting.
Additionally, your statement regarding sprinters and football lineman being best off by full squatting the majority of the time is erroneous. Remember, lifting weights for anyone other than a powerlifter, strongman, or OL lifter, is a general means of development. However, each exercise, and modality of exercise, yields specific development. Thus, to prescribe one modality of exercise for various athletes engaged in various sports with various ability levels is misinformed.
The weakness must define the means, not the results which are recognized as being yielded by any particular modality of exercise.
Supervenomsuperman has come over to the darkside! I am now a proponent of BAND USAGE! But only if it is used this way!
Bands decrease the bar speed significantly compared to regular bench press on the concentric contraction; therefore, bands should not be used for the entire eccentric-concentric
contraction.
I do know how the SSC works and bands work against the proper firing of muscles in the SSC! Although the initial Eccentric loading with bands may help the SSC and reactive ability, the concurrent concentric action is slowed down; therefore, as a whole the SSC does not take place properly! REMEMBER SSC STANDS FOR STRETCH-SHORTENING CYCLE THE ECCENTRIC PART OF A LIFT REFERS TO THE STRETCH WHILE THE CONCENTRIC PART REFERS TO SHORTENING. With bands the shortening of the SSC does not take place fast enough; therefore, the SSC is interupted when you compare to a natural movement!
As Zatsiosrky puts it, "Many coaches assume that drop jumps are directed toward improving the storage and reuse of elastic energy during takeoff. However, more energy is stored and reutilized only if the muscle tension is greater[which bands create in the eccentric phase]. So the actual source of enhanced motor output is the increased muscle force production during this type of activitiy. The enhanced force is a result of
*inhibition of the reflex for Golgi organs [bands achieve this]
*potentiation of the stretch reflex [which bands Elars believes achieve this] and,
Zatsiosrky also states, “The kinetic energy (E) is defined by the formula E=mV^2/2, where m is the mass and V is velocity…An increase in mass always leads to a decrease in rebound velocity.” (Pg 159).
So this would suggest that bands allow the user to achieve a higher velocity downwards and therefore increase there kinetic energy and achieve an increase in rebound velocity (which I believe is the WSBC’s whole argument!); however, IMO I believe that the rebound velocity is decrease because of the bands use on the concentric phase (Bar velocity)!
The solution to this problem is to use a hybrid of AMT and Bands by WSBC.
You use bands on the eccentric portion but not the concentric portion! You can do this by following what innosport does with AMT (see link below) or you can get a broomhandle and attach both sets of bands from the bar to a broomstick (the broomstick will be placed below the bench! Now when the bar touches the athletes chest that is when the spotter steps off of the broomstick and this leads to the nonresistance of the bands on the eccentric portion! This would increase velocity greater than gravity on the downward phase while increasing rebound velocity and SSC on the upward phase!
I don’t like this idea bc the bands maybe released at different times; therefore, I believe a broomstick or very light bar would be the best case scenario! So there you have it!
Venom is now a limited believer of the BANDS, that should get all u monkeys off my back! :eek:
Hahaha its funny that you write that… cause I distinctly remember a quote (read it somewhere) from Louie simmons about 3 years ago, stating something to the effect of…
“bands make us fast but we wont be truly fast untill we can release the bands like weight releasers and perform the concentric without them”
So yeah he beat you to it, but good thinking none the less
Anyway ive been thinking for a while about how release bands and I had a couple of okay ideas… Personally I would have to see the broomstick thing in action… I dont really get how it would work… would also need a very trained person to release it… and a strong broom stick…
still though after mucking around for a while you might get somethign to work…
One thing to do would be only have tension in the top half of the lift, that way you get the acceleration down and the fast reversal and only the top half of the concentric would be affected…
Ill have to think about the ideas I had for releasing bands again I had some gadgets figure out in my head that might work…
Hey dudes!! I am not sure but couldn’t you hold the bands in your hand at the top of the jump, jump down and then release upon absorbtion of the shock??? It is not ideal but if you are by yourself it might work …kind of …also you could hold dumbells in your hands and drop down, upon absorbtion you drop the bumbells, it is not the same as bands but it is like weight releasers…I am not sure if this helps at but just some thoughts!!! Keep us posted on ideas!
You could probably do the same thing with the bench if you had two other training partners…they could add a lot of band tension and stand on the bands then when you lower the bar to your chest and are about to exploder up they would step off,…I guess this is kind of the same as weight releaser though!!!
Its no secret many of the guys at Westside have suffered their share of injuries. Since strength training should be a means to prevent injuries, not create more, I’m curious what alterations people have made?
I disagree! I am now becoming a firm believer that at certain points in your lifting injuries are not only wanted but we require them! Here’s what I mean. This past month for the first time ever I injured my right chest ligamant/tendon attachment doing bench. The causes for this injury were many i.e too cold in the gym, too much time between sets waiting for a spotter, and not having my underarmour and sweatshirt on. This the third time on shoulder has gotten injured! So What? I am usually able to bench within a week of the initial injury except this time it was 2 weeks. What happened today is that I benched 385lbs today albeit 20lbs lighter than my max for the year. I would have hit my max if I was able to train and properly supercompensate for todays 1RM lift. At 135 I felt tight, but at 225,275,405,385 I felt absolutey fine! What happens when you get injured is that scar tissue develops and contrary to popular opinion scar tissue for powerlifters is a good thing! Its a good thing as long as the tissue doesn’t adversely affect the biomechanics of the lift; for example, with my patellar tendon I had to do much stretching as well as deep friction massage to realign the scar tissue along with the muscle to reset the ligament/muscle length. In fact my right knee has never felt stronger and has not given me any further problems! With my upper chest ligament/tendon I have always gotten stronger in the short and long run after my intial injuries. But wait a minute if I continually injure my upper chest ligaments then that means I should be weaker and be lifting the same weight as little girls like John Davies correct? Anh WRONG! I always end up stronger and more exlposive after the injuries bc my organism has adapted to the stress and made me stronger! As for hamstring injuries I have had at least 2 per side in the last ten years; however, I am sprinting at full velocity now and it hasn’t bothered me since bc I stretched religously and deep frictioned both hamstrings when I recieved the injuries! Look at BJ in Seoul where he injured his hamstring muscle a couple of months earlier and at Seoul he became the worlds fastest man! “Venom you always get injured sooner or later why don’t you just take it easy?” I always say this to my competition, " Hey listen MORON how much are you lifting? What’s your current 1RM max on bench press or squat? YA that’s what I thought!" I always annihilate any joe in the gym that talks this trash bc there to afraid to go for it! In fact, I remember spotting this one guy on every rep on the smith machine doing military presses bc even though he could do the 12 reps at 135 he was so scared that he might get injured so he asked me to help him a little on each rep! LMFAO
Point is that I am like Tin Cup I always go for it bc that’s just me! I always end up embarrassing my competition bc they are a bunch of pansies who are always worried about getting hurt instead of becoming not only the best but the best ever! Imagine how strong SUPERMAN could have been had he worked out as strong as he dedicated himself to saving lives! Funny thing is though, even when I am injured I can outlift those dummies!
Funny you mentioned that! I know of one guy here who did it and never lifted again bc he became so depressed that he could not get anywhere near the strength levels he did before! However, he would severely overtrain and never take a regeneration week! I use to do the same until I learned about periodization a couple of years back! So for most people who have good coaches and know most of the info available at this forum, tearing of a pec should never happen but then again some people are so stubborn that they continue to work while their injured! I have been lifting for over 15 years now if I was going to tear a pec if would have happened by now!
In fact, thats two guys I know, the second one was bodybuilder who abused substances which lead to his pec tear!
Its all relative. I think you have good numbers but the guys at Westside would say your numbers suck. Does that mean you weren’t “going for it”?
It would be unacceptable if you were a strength coach and you came into a season with a number of players out because of weight training injuries. There are a lot of members on this forum that follow a westside template or use it with their athletes, so I’m still interested in hearing what they do in terms of finding a balance between risk/reward.
Supernova
Do you really think that the slowed concentric is a problem and that bands should only be used as you describe?
I mean you get all the advantages of the eccentric and transition… Now theres some data/info to show that its not how fast you accelerate the concentric its the intent, so if you used compensatory acceleration technique like you should anyway it would really be a problem… Secondly the band tension is low(er) at the bottom any, so the speed there will still be good. Thirdly it may be safer/better/optimal to have the concentric slowed a bit… prevents some of the hyperextension issues, allows to work acceleration strength, and still train the distal ROM (the intentionally slows down anyway) the only other way to do those things would be to throw the bar… Fourthly its worked for like a billion people. Fithly you can set bands up so that there is no tension for the first part of the concentric
I do see your point though, I think that it may be advantageous to have some kind of releasing system depending on what your trying to do…
I have used the westside template with a lot of success with my high school athletes. We used the performance block for lower body days, we squat using Prilipens chart(got that from Coach X) Week 1 4 x 6 @65%, week 2 4x5 @ 72%, week 3 3x8 @ 60%, week 4 5x3 @ 80%. Then for the next cycle add 5 % to the percents. For upper body we use a max effort(1/2/3 board press,floor press,incline/decline) working up to a 3-5 rep max. We rotate max effort upper body exercises every 2-3 weeks. For assistance exercises on lower body days alot of reverse hypers, band good mornings, band leg curls, band pull thrus, we also do the hyper complex(got that one from CF) and abs in the range of 200-500. On upper body it’s push ups, dips, pull ups, lat pull downs, chest supported rows. For dynamic days on squat we wave between 60-70% and we use the same assistance exercises. On upper dynamic it depends on the athlete some do a repitition day some do the dynamic bench at 60% and the same assistance. Using this system we have produced some very strong high school athletes. The biggest benefit over the last two years was our reduction in injuries. We had 0 last year.
I had some gadgets figure out in my head that might work…