Westside Barbell Method-Arguements For/Against

General Discussion Debates
301

In case you missed it,

On the Monday Night Football pregame show being the NFL Today they showed some of St. Louis Ram Adam Archelleta’s workout. They talked about CNS stimulation and improving his bench press. Adam was doing ghg’s by putting his feet under a wt stack (like the wts on a lat pulldown machine) they also showed him using EMS while he was doing the ghg (maybe he didn’t have enough strength to do one without EMS). The showed him doing explosive bench on the modified smith machine (it was modified because instead of the bar there was a flat piece of metal the size of a rectangular coffe table). They showed him trying to do a fast arm movement back and forth while releasing a 5 lb wt like a sprinter who would do a full arm swing in a bentover row type position and he releases the wt swings his arm back and then forward trying to catch the wt. He did side to side plyo pushups.

Finally they showed him doing drop catches on the bench press where he was dropping the wt and then catching it just before the bottom (his hands were always on the barbell he just lowered really fast), what this does is it produces ecc loading and therefore a better reactive response and thus more force on the concentric contraction! The wt he was using was 225 lbs which led him to increase his bench to over 500 lbs! This last technique I believe is an invention of the WSBC.

302

That video has been floating around the internet for some time now. The evosport site used to show footage of Archuletta training as well.

As far as Archuletta benching over 500, I’ll believe that when I see it. In the video clip that I saw, which showed him benching (over 500 I believe), Jay appeared to have his hands on the bar providing who knows how much assistance.

303

Supervenom,
every technique you saw has been covered in detail in supertraining, there is nothing new out there.

304

JMAn,

Sorry about the Yanks, 10-3 ouch!!!

The yanks bats looked like they needed some Dynamic effort work last night.LOL

305

There’s a thread on this at T-Mag. Supposedly the 523 (?) was assisted, but someone said they saw a clip of 510 unassisted. Anyone know where I can find that MNF pregame thing?

Oh yeah, GO SOX!!!

306

Damn. The curse has been lifted. Well, I guess it’s no surprise, the country is going to shit so it only makes sense that the Sox would beat the Yanks.LOL

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IMO,
The curse won’t be lifted until the Sox win a world series. Is only beating the yankees enough. You can’t settle for second place, after all it is still first loser.

308

It’s true, the Sox still have to win the world series, however, the fact that they beat the Yanks is proof enough of the paranormal.LOL

309

j-man, been thinking some things over, and have been doing this workout lately, I like it, no trouble recovering, takes very little time. Of course only time will tell if it will make me stronger, I am confident it will. Heres what I was thinking for off season. Again goal is football player(LB/SS position, maybe somewhere in the offensive backfield)

Day 1-Speed, Upper Body Limit, Lower Body Assistance

  1. This day will include accelleration training. Accellerations with lengthen over time. Somewhere in the area of between 4 and 8 sprints in the session ranging from 4x60m to 8x30m
  2. Upper Body Limit Exercise-3x3@ around 90% of 3RM or above with the exercise. Will keep a few main lifts in this category(Flat Bench with Different Grips, Incline w/ Different Grips, JM Press). As well I believe Prelipin’s specifies for lifts around 90% or above, 9 total reps at most, this follows that.
  3. Heavy Triceps Exercise(Pushdown or Extension)-2-3x6
  4. Heavy Upper Back Exercise-2-3x6
    Between Sets of all exercises, perform lower body assistance exercises in circuit fashion, low enough intenisty to be a muscular stress, not CNS stress(ie Unilateral, hamstrings, and Ab’s exercise for 6 reps each, Abs higher reps)

Day 2-Recovery
Tempo will be used on this day to take care of general cardiovascular development, lower bodyfat, and facilitate recovery. Between tempo reps Abs, and upper body bodyweight exercises can be done

Day 3-Plyo and Strength Endurance

  1. Plyometrics-40 total reps
  2. Strength Endurance-Running A’s or B’s
  3. Assistance-like weight room work can be performed if desired
  4. Abs

Day 4-Recovery
Similar to day 2

Day 5-Speed and limit lower body, assistance upper body

  1. Flying runs to work on reactivity and relaxation, distance/reps range from 4xflying 30 to 8xflying 10
  2. Lower Lift(Box Squat, Good Morning, Snatch Grip Deadlift, Trap Bar Deadlift)-3x3@Around 90% of 3RM or greater
  3. P-Chain Exercise(basically one of the lower lift movements, but at a lower intensity)-2-3x6
  4. Hamstrings-2-3x6
  5. Abs
    Again, upper body assistance work is done between sets, exactly like lower body assistance work on Day 1.

Day 6-Recovery
Off or similar to day 2

Day 7-Off

  1. Cycles will go three weeks, with one deloading week, in which and sprint intensity may be upped while slightly reducing volume in order to try and optomize power conversion. Weight room volume will probably not go down, but intensity will drop down to around 80% to continue training maximal strength, while giving my nervous system a break(9 reps at around 80% is a lot less stressful I am hoping).
  2. Limit strength exercises will bet changed at the beggining of each new cycles, keeps variety up(I am extremely wired and need changes or I get bored). This is essentially a simplified periodization plan.
  3. As well this set up follows the modality of vertical periodization/conjugate method(development of multiple qualities, I like how DB seperates them so I will use those terms, including Rate, Magnitude, and Duration) and the alternating of high and low intensity sessions, as well as the low intensity sessions promoting recovery.
  4. How does this look? Weight room sessions tend to last around 25min like this and track sessions are short, as this is no where near the colume of a track athlete, so total workout time for Day 1 and 5 are around an hour and fifteen to an hour and 30 minutes. Workouts on Days 2, 3, and 4 are very short, around half an hour. What do you think of this as an off season schedule?
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Numba, as always, it’s great that you put a lot of thought into the program construction.

A few things: If you are going to perform plyos, I would recommend performing plyos twice per week for no more than a four week cycle. This will alow you to reap maximum benfit and avoid stagnation/CNS burnoiut. this protocol seems to be the general consensus of many in the field, Due to the inability to reap rewards after prolonged implentation of plyos.

However, and after having said that, at your bodyweight, I would be hesitant to perform any high intensity plyos in the first place.

Also, I can’t stress enough, how important adequate recovery is, it appears as if you address this, just keep that in mind.

You mention that it is going well so far but time will tell if you become stronger. This leads me to believe that strength development, limit strength, is a primary goal. Thus, I must say that two strength development workouts per calendar week, 1 upper and 1 lower, is NOT the optimal frequency of training in order to develop limit strength.

Again, with respect to program construction, we must assess 1. your weaknesses, and 2. the motor requirements which must be developed to accel at the sport/position.

If you feel that you have constructed the program in a fashion which will serve to develop those identified goals/traits, and one that is appropriate for your level of physical preparedness, then give it a go.

Let me end on this. I spoke with Jim Wendler, of WSB/Elitefts, the other day for quite some time, and he reinforced a concept which occurs all too often in the S and C field and especially on these forums.

With respect to strength development, for athletes and lifters alike, he said to not forget that most individuals need nothing more than to load the f’n bar and lift it. Obviously, he was generalizing, however Jim went on to explain to me how, during their seminars, the he and Dave are always bombarded with arguements and debates from 150lb acedemics who rant and rave about their complex utilization of this method and that method, and in the end, who are you going to believe during a strength training debate, a group of 900lb squatters or a weak little bookworm who thinks they are reinventing what the Soviets uncovered 40years ago.

I agree with him COMPLETELY. So, often in these forums we become so acedemic that we can lose site of the fact that none of this is, nor must it become, rocket science.

We can get all the speed information we need from what Charlie has laid down, (eg we know what methods develops speed) and all the strength development information from what the former Soviets and Eastern Bloc has laid down (eg we know what methods develop strength). The challenge, as always, is to be able to formulate programs which, more than anything, make sense with respect to the MANY variables/peculiarities which are specific to each athlete.

So, your program, as you have illustrated it, does make sense, with exception to the plyo arguement and not enough frequency of limit strength development, so without having assessed your physical preparedness myself, and as long as your program satifies the requirements of physical preparedness and sport requirements, as you see it, then go for it and let your body and your performance tell you if you are doing it right.

Personally, I would like to see more attention paid to strength development, SPECIFICALLY because limit strength development appears to be a goal of yours.

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Haha i agree, and I do load the bar, I try to lift within myself, always hovering around 90-100% of the RM. I thought twice a week straining would do it, as there are only two max effort days? I have gotten stronger, but I believe that this is because of the reintroduction of weights, thats why I said time will tell. I like the program, and could I include lighter intensity plyometrics as part of the “assistance” workout for lower body? I like the plan and would like to give it a go. I address heavy weights once for upper and once for lower in a calender week(as does westside) and address pure speed twice a week(as does charlie) and plyometrics 2-3 times a week(if I need a boost I’ll use them in a warm up procedure). I am glad you like this one more. I will write what I think my weaknesses are and my goals so that you can provide a better critique.

  1. Weaknesses-Strength! I was that kid that didnt have to lift real hard, but just kept getting stronger and was always top 3 lifters in the school, so didnt go to hard at it, paying for it now though. This is where the heavy lifting and assistance exercises would come in. As well I have always been a naturally fast and agile guy and my lifts are unimpressive(300 bench, 500 squat, 435 deadlift).
    2.Goals- Increase limit strength, lean up more!, I think these are what are really holding back my speed potential as I am a naturally fast guy. I’d like to bench press 405, and get my deadlift into the 500’s and my squat into the high 500’s, who knows maybe hit 600 in the lower lifts. As for weight Id like to be around 220, pretty lean. Again strength is addressed via the heavy lifting. Speed via the plyometrics and sprinting. Work capacity/leaness/recovery via tempo workouts that include bodyweight drills. I think I have the bases covered not to poorly.
  2. Again I must ask how I do not cover limit strength adequetly? Two heavy workouts a week, and two assistance workouts a week. Westside only does two heavy workouts, as does DeFranco(sorry if I have this wrong) and hes got some decently strong guys.
  3. This will probably be the plan I will be sticking with post football, perhaps Ill change the lifting protocol if my progress ceases, as I am using it now. As for the plyo’s I meant that day as the very high intensity ones(low box depth jumps, high box jumps, weights hip explosions, etc…) with lighter ones done as part of the track workout(bounds, long jumps, vertical jumps, etc…).
  4. As you can see I am not one of those bookworms, I go with what makes sense and is simplistic, want to lift big? then lift heavy weights. want to run fast? well then run fast on the track. Makes sense to me and is proven.
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Numba, I like the way you explain yourself.

As far as the two limit workouts plus assistance for upper and lower, you are correct in your understanding of Defranco’s and Westsides methods, however, based upon your illustration, I’m not sure how you will progress with performing a limit lift- a supplemental lift- and an assistance lift, and then finishing/integrating with assistance work for the other ‘hemisphere’.

I think one of two things will happen over time, either 1. if you truly employ an adequate volume of assistance work at the end/in between the primary lifts, you will find that this is too much work for a single strength training session, or 2. you will have to go so much easier on the assistance work, due to the limit and supplemental lifts which precedes it, that you may not benefit much from it. But, again, this is just ‘my thoughts’ not having employed a similar program myself.

Again, remember that anything will work for a certain amount of time.

By playing devil’s advocate I only aim to encourage you to think if there may be a more optimal approach to develop your limit strength and speed concurrently.

Because, remember, a true conjugate sequencing of trained motor abilities, would suggest that you precede a speed development phase by a limit strength phase. It is by merging the Concurrent method and Conjugate method in which you train abilites in sequence and concurrently, therebye, waving priority.

If you are truly confident in the split then keep at it and let me know how you progress.

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thanks for the comments/concerns/encouragement, its appreciated. ill keep workouts posted in my journal, wont really get to test the real split til after football.

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Numba, good deal, I’ll be looking for your new PR’s.

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A few comments:
1: The accel distances should not go out to 60m. Prob your limit should be 40m.
2: Flying runs are not appropriate as you will be in conflict with your lifting patterns (this type of work requires an amount of unloading and adjustment you won’t have need of, or time for. Better to do speed-change work like 20 easy, 20 fast, 20 easy, or, 20 fast, 20 easy, 20 fast in place of this.
3: As sprinting is, in fact, MORE intense than lifting, you cannot increase sprint intensity while attempting to unload.

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Remember that program shifts may have a dramatic cost in stiffness and injury risk. If plyos are to be used, some plyo componant must be maintained throughout, though it can be raised and lowered as required. All adjustments must be smooth-edged to avoid stiffness or adaptation will be compromised.
See my comments above.

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O man, the master has answered! Hmm surprisingly fewer comments that I thought I would get.

  1. Ok so first off, cut off accelleration distances at 40m. Question though, it appears me to that your recommendations in the book are for around 240m of speed work(8x30m, 4x60m). So would a workout consisting of 40m runs only(although I would like to mix it up, I like longer accells), be 6x40m?

  2. And would this distance total be my ceiling(Arouind 240m, maybe 300m)? I ask because as I am not a sprinter, a volume for a sprinter only may be higher, and I might only require a lower amount of distance, and plus with football mass and weightroom strength having a bigger impact on performance than in sprinting.

  3. And for top speed training, use in’s and outs rather than flying runs.

  4. Would the ins and outs volume be similar to the accelleration volume(240-300m)?

  5. So rather than a raise in intensity in the sprints, keep it the same, possibly lower volume slightly during unload? As well is volume the factor to play with as far as loading and unloading with sprinting and plyometrics? I mainly want to use them in my warm up on sprint days, then as a stimulus for reactivity/RFD during the middle day.

  6. I’ll assume no comments on other parts means that they are fine, not exactly your choice, but not at least will help with my goals and goes with your recomendations from the book.

  7. Thanks again for putting in your time for free, its very much appreciated. Can’t wait for the new book, and to get the DVD’s.

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1,2,3,4: You can vary the vol depending on distance - ie 4 x 20m, and 2 sets of 3 x 40m (300m total). For speed change, you could use 3 x (20 easy, 20 fast, 20 easy) and 3 x (20 fast, 20 easy, 20 fast). That equals 360m but should be OK cause the last 20 of the EFE drill is just cruising down so you can realistally drop 60m from the total. For very short accels like sets of 10s and 20s, you might need to drop the total vol a bit. The tpo speed drills could be done, but only as SUB-maximal work for form- you could that on your recovery week.
5: During recovery week, the intensity is the main variable, so you need to drop intensity and MAYBE vol if you need to.
6: I assume the rest is suited for you as you seem to feel ok from it.
7: Thanks. The E-material will be ready soon.

319

Can someone help me understand this? Flying runs conflict with what type of lifting? When would flying runs be appropriate and when would speed-change work be appropriate?

320

Charlie, what are your thoughts on +200lb athletes performing high intensity plyos (eg depth jumps, altitude landings, etc), and how would you wave the utilization/intensity of plyos for extended/multiple training cycles.