I just thought I would point out that the system you just described for weights is almost exactly like the Nebraska one. You have 4 days of lifting with 2 high intensity and 2 moderate intensity. The only differences are that you throw in another day off before your last lifting day and do 2 DE days which be 2 moderate intensity days for Nebraska. So instead of your last workout on a friday you have it on a saturday for example.
Yes, but the exercises that I employ are a far cry from the OL based Nebraska program. And I spend a hell of a lot more time addressing the posterior chain.
The downloadable Husker program that my HS team was performing, prior to my arrival, did not have one single DL or GM variation and only on one day, out of four, was there anything for the lats. Nothing for ext rotators. No heavy core training. What there was, was an overwhelming abundance of pressing exercises.
This is a recipe for creating glass backed athletes with shoulder problems.
I agree. J-man, can u look at my workout log entitled work outs, tell me what you think so far? These are done before practice. Thanks.
Again If an athlete is taught the âCorrectâ way to pull from the floor( none of this hang bullshit) and it doesnt even have to be a clean or a snatch(but thats what i do), it can be a clean pull, snatch pull and SG dead than you will get all the POSTERIOR chain work you could ever want, along with trap, grip, and calf work, in an explosive athletic manner.
Since when doesnt the OLâs and the assistance excercises work the posterior chain?
Double knee bend anyone?
My point is that weekly volume of work which develops the posterior chain muscles, as indicated by the downloadable Husker program which my team WAS performing, is not sufficient.
And if it comes down to selecting which lifts develop the posterior chain muscles most effectively, I will take DLâs, and GMâs any day over clean and pull variations.
In regards to strength development, we must not forget that all Olympic lift variations are speed-strength lifts, as any Olympic lifter can deadlift more than they can clean or high/low pull. Accordingly, the Olympic lifts and their derivatives are not sufficient for developing limit strength.
As always, there are many ways to train effectively, therebye, developing the general strengths which most effectively facilitate the enhanced expression of sport skill.
In regards to football, I absolutely believe that limit strength (specifically for lineman) is paramount. Obviously, the importance of developing all strengths along the curve is crucial, and certain strengths are more specific to certain positions. An OL based program for football, in my opinion, is insufficient for developing truly strong players. Explosive maybe, however, explosive strength /RFD is a motor quality which is more easily and efficiently developed by box squatting, reactive drills, and sprints. As always, this is my opinion.
Numba, I checked it out, and to be honest, there is not enough information documented for me to formulate much of an opinion.
Of what is listed, I can tell you that perorming heavy squats and bench press right before practice is not an optimal scenario.
Is the time period immediately before practice your only time to strength train?
Jman,
I definitally dont like that husker program either, and I am pretty confindent that you are doing the right thing with your football guys. Like a said before i use alot of your ideas.
My main point was that clean pulls, rdlâs and the like are great posterior chain builders and (this is where i disagree w/you) i think they do build limit strength. I think the clean falls more in the Strength-Speed catergory, where the snatch falls into the speed-strength category. With that bieng said i can clean pull 120-140% more than I can clean. This is a limit weight.
This comes in handy for me right before the season because I can work on the explosive stuff like cleans and snatches or jumps plyoâs, and then just throw some extra weight on and do a couple of set of pulls to maintain my limit strength.
Oh yeah i almost forgot to tell you to check out this site:
Its a news letter about throwing and training. Its put out by Dan John a former thrower at utah state, olympic lifter, highland gamer, thows coach and all around nice guy, he is also good friends with (in my opinion)two of the greatest american throwers ever, John Powell and Brain Oldfield. The newsletter has wealth of down to earth info and is always an enjoyable read. Just be forwarned there is alot OL info there but you will find info on westide training too.
Finally I still cant believe you are from NY and are Yanks fan⌠I knew there was somthing strange about you.LOL Game 6 tonight!!!
Placing the clean as a strength-speed lift is borderline in my opinion. For example: what is your 1RM DL and your best clean. If the clean is less than 80% of your DL 1RM than I would not categorize cleans as a strength-speed lift.
I would place the clean pull as a strength speed lift which would facilitate the development of limit strength, however, I would not categorize it as a limit lift onto itself. Unless, for some reason your best clean pull is ove 90%1RM of your DL 1RM.
As all of the OLâs, and variations, begin as pulls (with the exception of jerks/presses), I like to categorized them relative to the DL, along the F:V curve.
Thanks for the link. Iâll check that out.
I did not grow up in NY, just the rest of my entire family. Accordingly my Dad raised me as a NY fan.
The Yanks are going to take the Sox for the long ride tonight baby.LOL
Why not just do the following?
I personally like DeFancos exercise selection from his WS for Skinny Bastards program with a few modifications (I prefer a circuit layout after the main exercise) and the above still fits within the CFTS template re CNS. If you want you could drop the sprint work on Day 3.
Also is the rep day DeFranco reccomends neccessary? I have been doing it evry 2nd time alternating it with a DE day. That said below is an intersting post from another board regarding wave loading on DE upper days.
with a raw bench barbells speed plays a huge keyâŚthe only little modification I would make to the original westside program is wave the %'s in 4 week waves for the dynamic bench workâŚbecuase I beleive a raw bencher can even go up around 85% and still actually be building speedâŚremember a max rep isnt going to be flying super fast so learning to push weights in the higher %'s quickly is key alsoâŚif I was going to try to up my raw bench I would use the basics for max eff work, 1 board, 2 board, 3 board, declines, reverse band benches, and for assistance work I would primarly do 4-5 boards with bandsâŚand for speed work i would wave in 4 week waves like this
wk1. 50%2x3,55%2x3,60%2x3,66%1x3,72%2x3
wk2. 50%2x3,58%2x3,64%2x3,72%1x3,78%1x3
wk3. 50%2x3,60%2x3,66%2x3,76%1x3,82%2x3
wk4. 55%2x3,65%2x3,75%2x3,85%2x3
wk5. repeat week 1
If your Olys are more speed/ strength (as mine are using Jmanâs criteria) is there any harm doing them pre tempo work? I have been doing Power Snatches and Power Cleans, 10 singles of each, at around 75-80% 1RM as a warmup and found them a great primer.
yeh, they dont open the weight room after, and i have to beg for the coaches to open it before practice, as well its closed on saturdaysâŚ
Jman,
the clean is most definitally a Strength-speed lift. In supertraining P19-20 clearly makes the distiction between strength-speed and speed-strength(fig 1.9A(strength-speed: the picture of an athlete jerking a weight) 1.9B(speed strength: the athlete is throwinga javelin). Speed-strength is a low load high velocity movement. Low load: like the throwing implements. The Olympics lifts although they are refered to as quick lifts, rely more on strength than speed. Why do you think olympic lifters squat so much.
Sox win again!!!
In keeping with Siff/Verkoshanksy and Zatsiorskyâs definition of strength speed, and holding to the fact that all strength components along the curve will find limit strength at one and and pure speed at the other. Accordingly, for may trainees, the clean is borderline strength speed/speed strength (within the context bar weight alone). I say this because until technique is mastered, one is not able to utilize significant loads, and certainly not significant relative to 1RM DL.
Having said that, I will agree that for an intermediate to advanced trainee (in terms of skill proficiency and all components of strength development), the clean is a strength speed lift.
Yes the Sox pulled it off, but it aint over baby.LOL
This radio interview with Louie Simmons explains the WS template as well as the reasoning behind bands and chains.
Could it be that bands train your brain and muscles to constantly push up against the bar like a concentric lift? You see in regular barbell training you let gravity take you down but at the same time you also let your brain and muscles lower the weight at the correct speed (not to fast); conversely; with bands you let not only gravity pull you down but also the bands and since the bands take you down faster your body pre-engages the stretch reflex or rather you not only have to react faster but also coordinate your muscles better/faster in order to lift the wt up on the concentric phase! Just a thought, LOL no Iâm not pro-westside just yet! 
It seems to me that the bands primary function is that it helps you lock out the wt; however, I like Iâve stated numerous times is that a tendo unit will do the same as well as compensatory acceleration. See
Siffâs tests at WSB showed an increase in mean and peak force during the entire ROM of the box squat with bands. The tests also showed and increase in force production during the later stages of the lift, in direct contrast to regular squatting (without bands) in which force decreases dramatically towards the end of the lift.
As far as I understand it, the Tendo unit is a measuring device, not one which provides resistance.
Attn CF,
From the Hip-Explosion thread and also from www.sdtalk.com/archive.asp?aid=2080 segment 3 at the 18:45 min mark Louie Simmons states the he has an athlete that is 6â3 wt 225 threw third in the U.S.A as a freshmen in the Discus and he jumps onto a 49 inch box because he did hip-explosions with a barbell and continually added wt and now he can do 225 lbs on his back. This is why he can jump this high! :eek:
Correct and when you canât lift the wt faster than 1 m/s then your doing to much wt for example and you should decrease the load. The whole point behind the tendo unit is to measure bar speed. So if your bar speed is to slow then you have to work faster otherwise your coach (say me for example) will not let you add on anymore wt while the guy next to you is doing an extra 10lbs and is rubbing this in your face. So the next time you perform the lift you do so because your goal is to get faster bar speed!
Oly pulls are nothing like a deadlift
from floor to knee level it is, and then it becomes more like an upright squat (with bar in your hands - ie load is forward of the body) when the double knee rebend kicks in - knees moving forward - this part actually resembles a vertical jump.
So you canât really compare itâs % directly to deadlift.
It is more like a hybrid lying somewhere between a frontsquat, high bar full back squat, and a strict cleangrip (straight back) deadlift. And most people will deadlift much lower loads using this style relative to the styles powerlifters use
I consider a powerclean to be a strength speed lift. A power snatch more on the speed strength side. Even then both lifts still use considerable loads.
So that was the only excercise this athlete did? Its that one drill that made him jump that high! I dont believe it. I am sure if he was training with simmons he was doing alot more than jumps off his knees.
I know a top college discus thrower, who probably couldnt jump onto a 36inch box. He works out 185 powerclean and probably benches 275 max and I never saw him squat, but he can throw that disk a country mile!!! 198Ft throw!!!