Charlie, I agree on all points.
Juggler, I completely agree, and if you have not read the material already, Louie has mentioned certain methods he has utilized with throwers and sprinters. I , however, do not recall the specific articles.
To Jman,
The NCSA may not be perfect but they strive to be. In case you forgot Boyd Epley is also the guy that made HuskerPower or Nebraska what it is today. Without him you’d probably still see many gyms the size of a NY apartment and see many athletes train like bodybuilders. Boyd Epley is all about what works, he along with Nebraska does various scientific studies on what things work and what things don’t for athletes not powerlifters.
I’ll reiterate it one more time, I do believe the bands can be useful at certain stages for compensatory acceleration (CA); however, I believe that if one can afford a tendo unit one will much better off. I have neither but it is not that big of a deal to me because everytime I am in the gym I constantly think before/during/after each rep about CA.
I pose another question to you instead, how does Joe Defranco use the westside method and at what stage? I only have his 40 yard manual but I don’t have his videos.
He pretty much uses it to the T, with some minor variations. He does utilize bands. And I think he perscribes a unilateral leg exercise on leg days. As well, I am not sure, but I think he does a 3 day a week schedule? His website is www.defrancostraining.com
Supervenomsuperman, I do recognize the impact that Boyd Epley has had on the athletic community, however, I do not agree with his utilization of training methods. The high school that I coach at was using a downloadable Husker program for their football program and the first thing that I did was to scrap it almost entirely. The program is HORRIBLY deficient in addressing the development of the posterior chain.
The best component about Nebraska’s program, of course in my opinion, is that it is well thought out and systematic. Aside from that, I do not believe it to be optimal for football players, but this is obviously a topic for whole other debate.
As Numba said, check out Defranco’s site, or give him a call. He and I have been playing phone tag, so I can tell you that he will return your call if you miss him.
You will get all the information you need from checking out his site and the articles which he has written for T-mag.
jman,
ok so i have to ask, if someone were to take the minimalist apporach suggested by charlie, sprint and lift, maybe some plyo’s, how would one be able to use ME exercises(purpose of weights in this approach is to up limit strength, and this is the best way of doing it)? I dont think one could have three max effort sessions a week. What bout
Day 1
Sprint
ME Upper, Lower
Day 2
Tempo
Day 3
Strength Endurance
Unilateral Lifts, Assistance Lifts?
Day 4
Tempo
Day 5
Sprint
ME Upper, Lower
Day 6 and 7
Recover/Rest
Could That work? Basically for ME exercises go to 3RM or 5RM, using bench variations(grip and kind), box squat, snatch grip deadlift, or good morning. Every three weeks, itd have to be stepped down. Could this work for offseason football?
http://www.defrancostraining.com/articles/archive/articles_westside.htm
Its definitely not to the T, it has some imptnt and well thought out variations I think.
I will speak generally, as the off-season may be broken down into different phases.
Generally, for off-season football, I would not have someone run 4 days a week. I would be more apt to employ various conditioning drills on certain days and running/sprints on others. 2-3 days a week for actal running.
Also, I don’t like the idea of ME upper and lower on the same day, especially when you are sprinting on the same day. This, in my opinion is too much CNS strain.
For off-season football, I like 4 days a week strength training with 3 days sprint/agility/conditioning. I recommend a WSB based, or Tier program. I wil illustrate a WSB template. Something as follows
Day 1
DE/mod intensity Upper
Day 2
AM sprint or conditioning
PM ME/high intensity lower
Day 3
OFF/or sled active recovery/flexibility training
Day 4
AM sprint or conditioning
PM ME/high intensity Upper
Day 5
Off/sled active recovery/flexibility training
Day 6
AM sprint or conditioning
PM DE/mod intensity lower
Day 7
Off/ or sled active recovery/flexibility training
So what I have listed here is a 4 day program with three auxilliary days. If nothing else I highly recommend flexibility training on the off days.
the game of football is based upon repeated bouts of explosive effort. Thus, I believe the sprint and conditioning training must serve to develop position specific starts, accelerations, deccelerations, change of direction, and so on, all within the frame work of very short durations.
As we know, a 100m sprinter is not best served by performing any type of repetitions which exceed a few hundred meters, at MOST. So we may view the actual race as being about 30% of the longest repetition used on certain training days.
I use the same guidelines for football. The average play is 6-10 seconds, regardless of position, therefore, I do not see the efficacy in employing any type of drill which exceeds 20-30 seconds per repetition, at the MOST.
Football is explosive strength/anaerobic endurance, force absorption/stabilization/production, I don’t care what position you play.
So, my view is to use the principles of Charlies system, but not the actual template itself.
This is much like my view of WSB method. I am a die hard believer in the system, however, I would not employ the WSB method, at least not in it’s strict sense, for sport training in which it does not apply to so well (eg, sprinters, MMA, wrestling, boxing, etc)
I do feel that the WSB template applies VERY well to football players, especially in the off-season. As always, adjustments must be made to accomodate the specific motor requirements of the sport in question.
The key, in my opinion, is to take the fundamental components of any training system, and then logically and systematically construct a program which most optimally suits the motor requirements of the sport.
We must remember that CFTS is for short sprinters, WSB is for powerlifters, and so on. And the primary target quality of each system is speed and strength, respectively. So we may than take this into perspective and construct programs which are specific to the demands of other sports in which strength (in all of its manifestations along the F:V curve) and speed (in all of it’s components starts/acceleration/max speed/SE) are fundamental motor requirements.
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hmm i see your view.
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I wasnt suggesting a true max efforct, sorry if that wasnt clear. I meant heavy up into the 3 rep range on the first day and heavy up into the 5 rep range on the 5th day so as to reduce load, but still induce a good training effect for maximal strength.
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As for agility training, etc in the off season, wouldnt this put too much wear and tear on connective tissue? we did this all summer and there is an epidemic of knee injuries and ankle injuries(didnt have them last year and as well we are stronger this year). I believe sprinting can be used as a general tool in this area as is strength training. Agility is a function of deaccelerating(muscular function, weightroom) and muscle elasticity(developed the greatest through sprinting), as well it provides practice in relaxing, contracting patterns for efficient movement. Of course if training for a combine, specific practice should be performed.
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One four days of running, tempo serves as a means to recover, very light intensity on a soft surface. As well it is an interval activity much like football(of course not as high intensity). Improving the cardio vascular system this way will aid in recovery between bouts of high intensity work(plays). The other two days are sprinting, to develop speed.
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So really it is only two CNS intensive days a week(sprints and maximal strength training). Two others are used to aid in recovery/recovery ability, and one is a muscularly stressful one, working on strength endurance and unilateral exercises in upper repetition ranges. I fail to see why this wouldnt work?
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Sorry to be a stiggler about this, but I fail to see the application of speed lifts if a person is sprinting?
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I think thats what I have done. I have combined ideas from the most effective way to make someone stronger(max effort lifts, repetition lifts) and from the most effective way to make someone faster(Charlie Francis template). I apologize if I am missing something, but I am failing to see the fallacies. Thanks a lot jman, always good to have your responses.
On point 6 - some kinds of “speed” lifts can do things sprinting itself can’t do, especially if you have been sprinting a while and have “adapted” to it.
There is a difference between speed expression and training to increase speed. ie training a muscle to create more force in a smaller time frame - do you think just sprinting will do this once your past the begineer level?
And just lifting heavy won’t do that either even if you attempt accelerate it maximally.
ok, since ur a DB fan, speed lifts would constitute magnitude exercises right? well sprint starts are magnitude exercises, so would hill runs and other resisted runs. Yes i believe i can, because there is more CNS energy to hit the track with.
Not neceassarily. Some are rate, and some are mag
And there are differnet types of mag catergories for differnet things 
sprint starts are more reactive accleration things I think.
What if you wanted to to improve RFI ability to help top speed or help fix some form issues? Just sprinting alone will just use whatever form issue you may have.
i think its more basic than that. didnt flo jo have something wrong with her running form, a hitch in her stride or something? how did charlie solve this? not with RFI’s, OI’s, or REA exercises, simply made her stronger and it was fixed. I mean really you cannot argue with Charlie’s results. And Ben isnt an isolated case of having great success, so did all of his team mates, and all the woman who used it, as well as many board members(i believe xlr8 runs a 6.2 or 6.3 55). I am just saying CNS energy is limited, why not focus it on the more important aspects, sprinting to develop speed, elasticity, reactivity, and RFD, while using weights to build limit strength. Covers both ends of the spectrum and does so while allowing a high intensity geared towards both, so more quality sessions are done with a good volume, rather than cutting sprint or strength work in place of methods that simply do what strength and track work would do by themselves.
I don’t feel like typing a whole bunch of stuff, but basicly we see things in totally different ways
use whatever works for you and what you believe in I guess
Although the specific strengths may be developed in the weight room which facilitate the expression of sport skill (eg agility) I would in no way equate the efficacy of certain means of strength training with performing the actual skill (agility work).
Going on little information, I must presume that the instance of injury your teamates suffered stemmed from a lack of physical preparedness, either general or special, which impaired their ability to handle the SPP workload.
Decceleration drills, for instance, of which there are many, will yield specific adaptations. Altitude landings, for example, are a tremendous tool for absorbing and stabilizing against high forces, however, the force is only downward. Whereas, slowing down from a full sprint, or acceleration, involves locomotion and the gravitational component. Thus, the force is absorbed through different vectors than an altitude landing. This is one example of how certain drills must be performed so as to simulate the sporting action on the field.
Our difference of opinion is more a function of different though processes, and possible training objectives. It seems to me as if you are doing everything possible so as to fit an off-season football program into the framework of CFTS, or vice versa, whereas, I would opt to dissect the CFTS and logically/systematically employ the various components where needed. As I eluded to in my last post, I feel that far too many individuals will try and force a square peg into a round hole, with respect to attempting to use particular training methods for sports other than the original.
I agree, in that I would employ hip extension DE work and sprinting in inverse proportions. However, DE work for upper body is a great means of not only developing speed strength in pressing power, especially in the abscence of sled or striking/pass blocking drillls, but also a a means for additional pressing volume that serves to deload the ME work, and the tension in the muscle fibers, generated through DE training, is sufficient to yield further strength gains and hypertrophy fast twitch fibers.
There’s one way to find out.LOL The key is that you are logical and systematic in your application.
I wouldn’t say fallacy, I would just rather reduce the volume of sprinting and use that volume to address other components of strength or conditioning. Again, with respect to football.
I thoroughly enjoy a discussion which really allows me to think.
I recently sprained my ankle and am right now unable to do lower body lifts entirely. My pressing movements have always been incredibly weak in comparison to my other lifts. Could I do six days of ME/DE work for bench since I have no way to work the lower body and tax my CNS at this point? Like Monday-Wed-Fri ME lifting (varying between 3-6rm) and DE work? I would do some basic pullups and lat pull downs to balance this out a little bit, but that is about all I can do right now.
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well i dont know what the others were doing as far as GPP, but I am fine(I do have an injury but it was a contact one).
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So what are you suggesting? I will tell you though that I pretty much refuse to do agilities and such for an extended period in the offseason(wear and tear, i feel the joint pain in my legs, as well I believe you only get better at the specific drill).
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I dont think Martin Rooney does any kind of deaccelerating running work, I think he does accentuated eccentrics to fix this(I apologize if I am wrong).
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As well as far as agility and deacclerative ability, what is a person is naturally very efficient as far as cutting back and stopping? How would your perscriptions change then?
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So since I am a stubborn SOB, what modifications would you make to my mixture? Let me put it in a tempalte form of something that might be more to ur liking…
Day 1-Sprint, DE Upper
Day 2-ME Lower, unilateral for upper
Day 3-Recovery
Day 4-Recvoery
Day 5-Sprint, ME Upper, unilateral for lower
Day 6 and 7-Recovery
Although Id still rather stick with my original one, I am very open.
DAVAN, I would not advise performing more than one ME workout for the same muscle group per week. Certain Olympic lifts, and variations, would be the only exception to this.
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Do you feel that you benefited from the agility work?
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Well, as I illustrated in my post, I would leave the option open for either sprint , agility, or conditioning work. You must pay attention to what your body is telling you, but at the same time, you must determine if your body is ‘mad’ because it could not handle the workload (which would indicate that there is a weakness to be addressed), or did the workload contribute to overtraining and is it necessary.
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I do not have the decceleration video yet, however, I will be speaking to Martin on the phone this week so I can ask him his opinion first hand. I do believe, that in the off-season (when there are no field practices) that one must incorportate some volume of SPP( agility work in this case) in order that the ability does not suffer a detraining effect.
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See answer 2. I firmly believe in identifying and strengthening weaknesses
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I would rather see you arrange it so that you perform as much of your sprinting days on the same day as you train lower body so as to consolidate the neuromuscular demands to the same region of the body on the same day. However, as you have it, performing sprint work the day before lower body training is also a viable option.
Also, do not underestimate the importance of flexibility/mobility work that I recommend you perform on off days.
got you, and no i didnt, i am naturally a very agile person. i do not at all, i apologize for not writing it in, but i stretch every night while watching tv or taking hw breaks(this is of course after workouts). I also do abs every day(except off days) and do mobility work in the warm up, although once the blood is flowing I hav pretty good dynamic flexability.