Weights and Plyo's: Before or after speed

I know there is varying opinion on this board as to which one should be performed, however no ones really touched on how different lifts and intensities can effect what is done. (Although Charlie did mention that he felt Rev. Hypers could be performed before speed.)
From experience, it seems that lifts which give the quads a beating in an eccentric manner (ie squats past 1/4, lunges, etc.) make it almost impossible to sprint afterwards.
Lifts which really hit the posteria drive train (Spinae erector, glutes hammies and the rest) such as revers hypers, straight leg deads and cable extensions, not only allow sprinting afterward but can actually enhance the speed session, particularly if the athlete has firing sequence issues.

Any thoughts?

I think volume/intensity is a big issue. Six doubles are not as fatiguing as 5x5 and would also have a more powerful priming effect on the CNS.

I started a dud thread called Motor Control. I hypothesise that the beter the athlete, the better their motor control and the smaller the benefit from performing weights first. So for elite athletes weights should follow speed but this need not be the case for intermediate athletes.:frowning:

I agree with you David.
The more advanced the athlete, the less this will assist. I do however, like to start off some speed sessions with a few med-ball throws or multi-jumps to heighten awareness.

I would prefer med ball throws before sprints rather than weights. The throws involve a large percentage of motor units and a high CNS activation, but because of their brief explosive nature, they don’t cause as much muscle fatigue as weights. This way you can get the increased motor unit activation before the sprints, but without the fatigue that might lead to injury.

Of course I’m only talking about a couple throws. More than that, and you start to get into the same fatigue problems as weights.

Hmmm…I usually do my weights after workouts. Regardless of my actual fatigue level, i feel mentally dead if i do weights before speed.

The only stuff i do before workouts (other than the warmup stuff) are plyos. I feel that these get me psyched up for my workout and don’t really hurt my times. However, i don’t do depth jumps before workouts (i save those for the weightroom) and do mostly bounding-like plyos before. I think i might try some medball work before workouts, sounds interesting…

I think the key point is what David said in the first paragraph of his post:

I think volume/intensity is a big issue. Six doubles are not as fatiguing as 5x5 and would also have a more powerful priming effect on the CNS.

I’m not quite sure why the “quality” of athlete is an issue. The degree of neuromuscular recruitment from the weight session is a purely subjective and individual variable and is dependent on the strength of the athlete at that time. The “heavier” the weight is for a particular athlete, the more motor fibers are recruited. How fast an athlete is doesn’t seem to be a relevant variable.

If the volume is kept low and the weight relatively high(i.e. 6 reps or less) for the weight session, the CNS will definetly be more “lit up” prior to an appropriately planned acceleration development session.

It has worked great with my athletes, but it may not be for everyone.

We always do weights after since the weights are there to help the sprints and, for us, not the other way around. I generally like to do the med ball and plyos before we sprint since they are done in such a low volume and are almost a part of the extended warm-up. I think such training tools awaken the CNS to be able to put out high power values. I like the idea of using med balls to provide resistance for total body power(extension of ankle, knee, hip joints) and then removing and hoping that some additional recruitment has occurred. We hope this heightened CNS stimulation will in fact remain with the body once the actual speed work has commenced similar to contrasting resisted sprints with regular un-resisted sprints though certainly not as specific-not a bad thing. Much can be attained through general work, in my opinion. I do like the value of plyometrics before sprinting since the body is often required to created high tension with a minimal amount of time to do it. Hopefully this will have a positive effect in reducing ground times during sprints.

We always do weights after since the weights are there to help the sprints and, for us, not the other way around.

This assumes that performing weights before sprinting won’t help sprinting as much as after. I’ve seen no evidence to support either way, and like i mentioned earlier i feel that there are a whole heap of circumstances which come into play, like intensity, reps and type, to make any situation a given.

I think the volume is the biggest factor in not putting the weight first. A low volume would not be too much of a negative, imho, but I would prefer to do them last. I think the, at times, higher intensity with the weights would actually be a positive factor in CNS stimulation before speed. I think you also have to look at all the training elements you use and realize that even the most elite of athletes with great work capacity is going to tail off at some point. You have to settle on something. I used to waffle on such matters and try to include everything which was, in retrospect, very stupid. The other negative about weights before speed is though you certainly want the athlete to be warmed up, if even the slightest bit of fatigue is present the speed with which you carry out such work will be compromised. Additionally, if technique suffers, so will the speed. I guess one could argue why eliminate the weights first strategy and why not get rid of the med ball or plyo work first plan. I think this is a valid arguement but I think for me personally, I looked at all the high intensity training elements and finally had to settle on a plan rather that going back and forth. I chose to include those elements that I felt would awaken/prime the CNS that involved the highest speed and skill. With that said I am a big proponent of inclusion of oly. lifts and their variations and recognize that these too involve high skill and at times high speeds. I agree, there are a number of factors that go into such a decision making process to determine the proper or rather optimal(though not for all people)ordering of training elements.

Sorry to bump up an old thread.
I’m a beginner sprinter. My PR is 12.35 but that was only my 3rd 100m race and the season ended. I believe I am around 11.9x now.
I go to the track at 9 o clock at night.
Because of this, I don’t go to the gym because the gym is closed.
I’m already on my 6th week of GPP and I haven’t done any weight work. I’m considering going to the gym before the speed workout say maybe 6 o clock.

So, just to be sure, would doing weights before my sprint workout be better than just doing my sprint workout alone because I am a beginner?

The workout I have in mind is:
Squat 6x3
RDL 3x8
Bench 3x8
Chin ups 3x8

I think it’s better to do bad form in the gym than on the track, if you had to choose.

Since form falls off as you fatigue, then do the important stuff (sprinting) when you are fresh.