Time to Gather my thoughts...

[ACOOPER]

QUIK, i know you don’t want this discussion to be about you but so far yours is the only program we have to make any judgments from. The things i’ve picked up are as follows:

1. The sprint volume in your program is really very low, especially max v stuff! There just isn’t enough repetition to promote significant learning. Seeing as how you seem to be having technical issues i think you really need run, run, run to convert the strength into speed. The technical issues could be for a couple of reasons, namely; poor form, or poor rate of force application. Either way the solution is to practice running.

To learn the proper mechanics for the start i like to use a progressive hill program. The hill not only puts you in the ideal start position and reinforces proper mechanics due to the higher resistance and slower speeds, it also lowers cns stress and impact which allows a higher volume to be completed in a given session. A six session progression i use which would be done 2 sessions/week looks something like:

session 1: 3x4x20m 60s/7min
session 2: 3x4x30m 90s/7min
session 3: 3x6x30m 2min/10min
session 4: 3x5x40m 2.5min/10min (reduce incline of hill)
session 5: 3x4x50m 3min/10min
session 6: 2x4x60m 3.5min/10min (reduce incline of hill again)

Then hit the track.

As far as max v goes you gotta get there 1st. By that i mean i think acceleration up to max v should be the focus. I’m not a fan of the usual flyin 20’s, instead i prefer to do a 20-30m max acceleration zone off a 20-30m run-in. The run-in serves to conserve energy for the max effort zone to allow a greater No. of runs to be completed. In reality the 30m max effort zone becomes a 20m max accel’ 10m max v zone.

2. Is your current weights program really as hip/posterior chain dominant as you think? I certainly don’t think the O’lifts are. The peak load is in the second pull, after the knee bend, and is quad dominant and so is the catch. And why trap-bar DL’s? They are probably the most quad dominant variation of the deadlift. The trap bar allows you to push your knees and hips forward and lift with a more upright back - less hip involvement. With a 335lb squat i would expect 5 wheels/side on DL…

Alan.

[utfootball]

@ACOOPER

QUIK, i know you don’t want this discussion to be about you but so far yours is the only program we have to make any judgments from. The things i’ve picked up are as follows:

1. The sprint volume in your program is really very low, especially max v stuff! There just isn’t enough repetition to promote significant learning. Seeing as how you seem to be having technical issues i think you really need run, run, run to convert the strength into speed. The technical issues could be for a couple of reasons, namely; poor form, or poor rate of force application. Either way the solution is to practice running.

To learn the proper mechanics for the start i like to use a progressive hill program. The hill not only puts you in the ideal start position and reinforces proper mechanics due to the higher resistance and slower speeds, it also lowers cns stress and impact which allows a higher volume to be completed in a given session. A six session progression i use which would be done 2 sessions/week looks something like:

session 1: 3x4x20m 60s/7min
session 2: 3x4x30m 90s/7min
session 3: 3x6x30m 2min/10min
session 4: 3x5x40m 2.5min/10min (reduce incline of hill)
session 5: 3x4x50m 3min/10min
session 6: 2x4x60m 3.5min/10min (reduce incline of hill again)

Then hit the track.

As far as max v goes you gotta get there 1st. By that i mean i think acceleration up to max v should be the focus. I’m not a fan of the usual flyin 20’s, instead i prefer to do a 20-30m max acceleration zone off a 20-30m run-in. The run-in serves to conserve energy for the max effort zone to allow a greater No. of runs to be completed. In reality the 30m max effort zone becomes a 20m max accel’ 10m max v zone.

2. Is your current weights program really as hip/posterior chain dominant as you think? I certainly don’t think the O’lifts are. The peak load is in the second pull, after the knee bend, and is quad dominant and so is the catch. And why trap-bar DL’s? They are probably the most quad dominant variation of the deadlift. The trap bar allows you to push your knees and hips forward and lift with a more upright back - less hip involvement. With a 335lb squat i would expect 5 wheels/side on DL…

Alan.

very good points man, but what the difference between flying 20’s and what u do - instead i prefer to do a 20-30m max acceleration zone off a 20-30m run-in? those sound like flying 20 and 30’s.

[ACOOPER]

@utfootball4

very good points man, but what the difference between flying 20’s and what u do - instead i prefer to do a 20-30m max acceleration zone off a 20-30m run-in? those sound like flying 20 and 30’s.

To me a “flying 20” is a 20m zone where you enter it already at max V off a 40m or so run-in. The problem i have with it is that an athlete can tend to stop accelerating when they reach it, to concentrate on proper form or whatever and they may not actually reach their potential top speed. By starting the max effort in what is clearly still in the acceleration phase of the run there is no question: you accelerate until you can accelerate no more, at that point you are at max-v.

[utfootball]

@ACOOPER

To me a “flying 20” is a 20m zone where you enter it already at max V off a 40m or so run-in. The problem i have with it is that an athlete can tend to stop accelerating when they reach it, to concentrate on proper form or whatever and they may not actually reach their potential top speed. By starting the max effort in what is clearly still in the acceleration phase of the run there is no question: you accelerate until you can accelerate no more, at that point you are at max-v.

ok understood, thats how i use to do my flying sprints till i learned diff here once u hit the first cone just maintain form and ride out, whereas my friends once they hit the first cone they gun it. i dont know which one is better.? most sprinters if they do a 40m run in they are moving pretty good at that point, at least i do 20 and 30 is a diff case.

[ACOOPER]

Gun it man. I still think the only way to get faster is to run faster - go where you haven’t been before. You still have to use the hit and maintain though as a way to limit the intensity during unloading etc…

[utfootball]

@ACOOPER

Gun it man. I still think the only way to get faster is to run faster - go where you haven’t been before. You still have to use the hit and maintain though as a way to limit the intensity during unloading etc…

may give it a try if i do anymore flying sprints this season.

[Hawiian_Surferboy]

you make a good point, and tonight when doing my fly 20s instead on maintaining ill just go for it. The key I would assume would to stay relaxed as if you try to push it to hard you may tense up and actually slow down.

[ACOOPER]

@Hawiian_Surferboy

you make a good point, and tonight when doing my fly 20s instead on maintaining ill just go for it. The key I would assume would to stay relaxed as if you try to push it to hard you may tense up and actually slow down.

For sure. It’s just one of the many skills you have to master, particularly the transition as you approach top speed.

[xlr8]

@QUIKAZHELL

Feels the same as far as I can remember. My start/acceleration sucks. I run 6.63 in a 57 meter dash. lol. Im all over the place. Nothing fixes this. Although it has gotten a bit better.
Today I just got my Speedtrap II in the mail. This may solve some of the problems start/accel tech. wise. When I try a few new things in the blocks. I am very inconsistent (inconsistently bad) and unconfident. I have one video from my early college years I will have to dig up and compare.

I appreciate all the help and keep it coming but I would also much rather this thread be turned back to the general thoughts and ideas as I know I am not the only person who has witnessed this phenomenon as described in post #1.

What I find strange is the fact that you got stronger yet your start and acceleration didn’t improve. This is one area where extra body mass and MSF should have less of an impact. There are plenty of big football players who can accelerate quite well, but aren’t able to reach top speeds of the true sprinters.

I find that even if I don’t get out to the track much, I still have a good start and early acceleration as long as I have been hitting the weights hard. The problem is that my top speed doesn’t feel smooth if I don’t get in enough top speed runs.

[Hawiian_Surferboy]

@QUIKAZHELL

A) After a certain stage of development (and granted that you are genetically “fast” while maintaining strength) Acceleration (20-30 meters) and Max Velocity (flying 20-30’s) can no longer be improved by simply doing accel work and running at Max Velocity. What I mean is that once you are at a certain point and technique is sufficent running flying sprints is no longer going to improve your flying sprint times.
One of the reasons I came to this conclusion is because I realized on numerous occasions I can not train for 3 months and run within .05 of my PR within 3 weeks of training.

I have had the same problem with accels. I have the van 04 dvd and have been following a similiar spp but my accels are not getting faster. Im very consistent to 30m, not by any means fast, so I know how you feel.

[QUIKAZHELL]

AC,
Thanks for taking the time to write an elaborate post. It is much appreciated when members (whether those you are trying to help agree or not) put alot of thought into what they post and actually have an orignal thought rather than posting regurgitated ideas. I will take some of your thoughts into consideration.

Regarding my weights program I am hitting the post chain (aside from my oly lifts) 2 times per week primarily with DB Swings, and RDL’s. I can’t do GHR’S as it gives me knee pain, and when I did them last yr. I feel they did not help just like every other lift in the gym. I have been doing trap bar DL’s because I never have the energy after a workout to get in a decent squat session and when tried it gives me all sorts of aches and pains and I wind up going too light and getting nothing accomplished. If I am going to squat I need to be fresh for some reason. With a 335 squat I don’t think a 430-450 deadlift is too shabby at all. I don’t know of many athletes with a squat under 400 who are pulling 5 plates on each side (490). I would say the deadlift should around 75-100 pounds more than your squat.

[Davan]

@QUIKAZHELL

AC,
Thanks for taking the time to write an elaborate post. It is much appreciated when members (whether those you are trying to help agree or not) put alot of thought into what they post and actually have an orignal thought rather than posting regurgitated ideas. I will take some of your thoughts into consideration.

Regarding my weights program I am hitting the post chain (aside from my oly lifts) 2 times per week primarily with DB Swings, and RDL’s. I can’t do GHR’S as it gives me knee pain, and when I did them last yr. I feel they did not help just like every other lift in the gym. I have been doing trap bar DL’s because I never have the energy after a workout to get in a decent squat session and when tried it gives me all sorts of aches and pains and I wind up going too light and getting nothing accomplished. If I am going to squat I need to be fresh for some reason. With a 335 squat I don’t think a 430-450 deadlift is too shabby at all. I don’t know of many athletes with a squat under 400 who are pulling 5 plates on each side (490). I would say the deadlift should around 75-100 pounds more than your squat.

I think you would like some of mortac8’s training (w/ some shift of focus toward speed vs accel) and it may suit you well since you don’t seem to respond well to a lot of lifting and sprinting at the same time. Hope mort doesn’t mind me giving him a plug, but his stuff is good if you really need to get some quality sessions in and have trouble staying fresh… from there you could start to bump up speed (as in max v, not just accel) volumes and see what happens.

[Tony_Schwartz]

The problem you are experiencing (rise in general strength without a concomitant rise in speed) is very common once you reach a certain level.

As has already been noted, some sprinters will continue to drop their times simply by sprinting and lifting. In my experience (more so with football and other team sports, not competitive sprinters) this is only the case for the genetically gifted, and even these people will eventually hit a wall that no amount of additional sprinting and lifting will get them through.

Does this mean that there is no hope at this point of improving your speed? No, but we must look to other methods.

I believe someone has already mentioned psychology. This is certainly something to look into.

Technique should also be given a hard look, as you can likely improve your times with slight changes to your technique. This would obviously involve a detailed video analysis of your technique by someone well-qualified (of which there are really very few).

Aside from these two factors, I think your issue brings up an interesting point relating general preparation methods to the competitive event. I have heard it all, as I’m sure many others have, that increasing your squat to 2x bodyweight, adding in more depth jumps, increasing your vertical jump, etc. will translate to improved sprint times. For a higher level athlete this is mostly B.S. Correlating improvements in general exercises (squats, vertical jumps, bench press, etc.) to sprint times makes absolutely no sense. When GPP is at a high level, further increases will no longer lead to improvement in the competitive event.

This is what specific exercises are for. Improving your SPP is the key once GPP is developed to an appropriate level. And if we are limiting ourselves and our athletes to simply performing repetitions of the competitive event for SPP I believe we are limiting the potential for improvement. Simply repeating the competive event or its variants (running 60m sprints for a 100m runner) will only take you to a certain level. For some this may be a very high level, depending on their genetic capabilities, and also how this work is structured into the total plan. Regardless of these factors, there is a limit to what this single method (repetition of the competitive event), or any single method for that matter, will bring to the table in terms of long-term improvements.

I believe you should look to other methods in the SPP phase. Things like resisted sprints (isorobic, slight incline, running into wind) and overspeed sprints (running with wind, slight decline, towing devices) are possibilities here. Additionally, the use of specialized exercises to enhance the individual phases of the sprinting action (knee drive, pawback, and push-off) may also be warranted. Which of these methods you choose will depend on a variety of factors, but predominately on the aforementioned technique analysis.

[numba56]

hmm, im not an expert, but i agree with everyone else that you are not sprinting enough. the increased volume is needed to convert that strength into speed. i really think the focus here should be, how could you increased your speed volume without the recovery/injury issues? perhaps taking it easier on tempo days (i always felt it was purely to get the blood pumping to help the muscles and joints recover), would allow for better recovery between speed days, and perhaps a more extensive/gradual warm up would help to mitigate injury caused by the increased volume?

[QUIKAZHELL]

@Tony_Schwartz

The problem you are experiencing (rise in general strength without a concomitant rise in speed) is very common once you reach a certain level.

As has already been noted, some sprinters will continue to drop their times simply by sprinting and lifting. In my experience (more so with football and other team sports, not competitive sprinters) this is only the case for the genetically gifted, and even these people will eventually hit a wall that no amount of additional sprinting and lifting will get them through.

Does this mean that there is no hope at this point of improving your speed? No, but we must look to other methods.

I believe someone has already mentioned psychology. This is certainly something to look into.

Technique should also be given a hard look, as you can likely improve your times with slight changes to your technique. This would obviously involve a detailed video analysis of your technique by someone well-qualified (of which there are really very few).

Aside from these two factors, I think your issue brings up an interesting point relating general preparation methods to the competitive event. I have heard it all, as I’m sure many others have, that increasing your squat to 2x bodyweight, adding in more depth jumps, increasing your vertical jump, etc. will translate to improved sprint times. For a higher level athlete this is mostly B.S. Correlating improvements in general exercises (squats, vertical jumps, bench press, etc.) to sprint times makes absolutely no sense. When GPP is at a high level, further increases will no longer lead to improvement in the competitive event.

This is what specific exercises are for. Improving your SPP is the key once GPP is developed to an appropriate level. And if we are limiting ourselves and our athletes to simply performing repetitions of the competitive event for SPP I believe we are limiting the potential for improvement. Simply repeating the competive event or its variants (running 60m sprints for a 100m runner) will only take you to a certain level. For some this may be a very high level, depending on their genetic capabilities, and also how this work is structured into the total plan. Regardless of these factors, there is a limit to what this single method (repetition of the competitive event), or any single method for that matter, will bring to the table in terms of long-term improvements.

I believe you should look to other methods in the SPP phase. Things like resisted sprints (isorobic, slight incline, running into wind) and overspeed sprints (running with wind, slight decline, towing devices) are possibilities here. Additionally, the use of specialized exercises to enhance the individual phases of the sprinting action (knee drive, pawback, and push-off) may also be warranted. Which of these methods you choose will depend on a variety of factors, but predominately on the aforementioned technique analysis.

Fantastic post. One of the best I have read so far. You seem to understand what I am talking about. If any other ideas come to mind please let me know. One thing that I think you have hit right upon was NEW STIMULUS. I was actually just thinking about this a few weeks ago. OVERSPEED!! Towing with bungees may allow me to break through a plateau. I know I will get flack for mentioning this training method because of mechanics etc. BUT if used sparingly for a new stimulus it may get me a desired result. I used it in college sophmore year and had good results. Who knows if that had anything to do with it but its worth a shot. I will wait until my top speed is in place and then give it a go.

[QUIKAZHELL]

I need to post this again because this is it…
Everyone needs to read this. THIS IS WHY I STARTED THE DISCUSSION…

“Aside from these two factors, I think your issue brings up an interesting point relating general preparation methods to the competitive event. I have heard it all, as I’m sure many others have, that increasing your squat to 2x bodyweight, adding in more depth jumps, increasing your vertical jump, etc. will translate to improved sprint times. For a higher level athlete this is mostly B.S. Correlating improvements in general exercises (squats, vertical jumps, bench press, etc.) to sprint times makes absolutely no sense. When GPP is at a high level, further increases will no longer lead to improvement in the competitive event.”

“This is what specific exercises are for. Improving your SPP is the key once GPP is developed to an appropriate level. And if we are limiting ourselves and our athletes to simply performing repetitions of the competitive event for SPP I believe we are limiting the potential for improvement. Simply repeating the competive event or its variants (running 60m sprints for a 100m runner) will only take you to a certain level. For some this may be a very high level, depending on their genetic capabilities, and also how this work is structured into the total plan. Regardless of these factors, there is a limit to what this single method (repetition of the competitive event), or any single method for that matter, will bring to the table in terms of long-term improvements.”

[lacrossetrack]

do more speed work before you committ suicide.

[Davan]

Quik if you are trying to get a response you want to hear then you got it. I think some people don’t quite agree with your thoughts and believe that part of the problem is such low volumes of speed work and near neglection of max v work. If people don’t agree then they don’t agree, that’s why we discuss. I think that is at least part of the reason why people are referencing your training for the basis of their opinions.

[QUIKAZHELL]

@lacrossetrack

do more speed work before you committ suicide.

Spoken by someone who has many quality posts on this forum…

How are your “flys” (which you just recently learned about) coming along?

"what are these??

Mondays workouts is done as follows:

3x60 meters fly with 3 minutes rest
6 minutes
3x60 meters fly with 90 seconds rest
6 minutes
3x60 meters fly with 3 minutes rest"

Funny how people can become experts over the course of a few months.

[lacrossetrack]

@QUIKAZHELL

Spoken by someone who has many quality posts on this forum…

How are your “flys” (which you just recently learned about) coming along?

"what are these??

Mondays workouts is done as follows:

3x60 meters fly with 3 minutes rest
6 minutes
3x60 meters fly with 90 seconds rest
6 minutes
3x60 meters fly with 3 minutes rest"

Funny how people can become experts over the course of a few months.

Please do us a favor and show us a picture of your lower body, i am pretty sure you have chicken legs and one of those guys who always brag about there upper body.