Both ST and FT.
Pakewi, do you mean that with appropriate training ST fibres can also contribute much more to what we believe in more “expolosive” movements? are at least get similar characteristics?
thanks!
I seem to have mistyped or you misinterpreted. I meant not a similarity between methods just timing parameters. But just to play devil’s advocate how does the muscle know where the impulse is coming from? Why does it matter if the frequency is variable as long as a (supra)-maximal contraction is induced?
Understood, in reference to comparing the duration of loading, however, there is still appreciable discrepency.
Taken from Supertraining:
The Russian strength scientist Kots determined the optimal loading parameters to consist of “a sinusoidally modulated 2500Hz current source applied in a sequence of 10 seconds of contraction followed by 50 seconds of relaxation…” This data is also corroborated in CFTS.
Taken from CFTS:
“Kots was able to show, using a tensiometric device, that a maximal tension produced by EMS is up to 30% higher than maximal voluntary contraction.”
…“No more than ten contractions (repetitions) should be administered to any one muscle group within a 24hr period”
Back to Supertraining: loading parameters for utilizing isometrics for absolute strength development:
hold maximal tension for no longer than 8 seconds
perform maximal contractions for 6 repetitions
use a 5-10 second rest between repetitions
limit total duration of isometric training to 10 minutes per session
So, as is illustrated above we may conclude that EMS is significantly more intensive than Isometric muscular effort for the purposes of developing absolute strength. Accordingly, the timing parameters, although similar for duration of contraction, are much different in respect to rest intervals between repetitions.
Allow me to back track; I would say that more importantly than the muscle recognizing the source of the impulse is the physiological effects of the stimulus, therefore, I do not like the comparison based upon the significantly more intensive effects of EMS as compared to slow isometrics for absolute strength development.
A few thoughts here:
1: EMS works very well and is tolerated well on big muscle groups. This would not be the case with biceps/triceps in the arms for instance, where isometrics would work better.
2: There has been a discussion of the use extremely long isometric holds at lower percentages of Maximum Voluntary Contractile Force. Why? One suggestion was safety but this is only true for this particular exercise within a range of exercises. Other maximal exercises will be compromised and may be put at risk by this exercise choice.
3: An advantage to isometrics is their ability to generate MVCF. Why then would you take a weighted bar loaded to 40% of MVCF and hold it for prolonged periods?
4: Isometrics affect the CNS while EMS bypasses it.
Charlie, in reference to thought 3, I have been thinking on this.
I too am unclear as to the efficacy (within the strength/power development regime) of such protocols for iso holds.
In Supertraining it is stated that, in reference to the drawbacks of iso’s, isometrics may disturb coordination, decrease speed of movement, an diminish soft tissue elasticity.
Siff, goes on to state that these ill effects may be minimised via an appropriate sequence of work and rest pauses and the limitation of the length of contraction to no more than 6-10 seconds.
So I, as well, ask the question what is the efficacy of such protocols for the purposes of developing strength/power/speed?
I know that Schroeder has spoke of the importance (from a psychological perspective) of training presenting a much higher emotional/
physiological/
psychological stress to the organism than the stresses of competition.
For this reason, I would postulate that the use of such extreme iso holds might benefit (certain individuals) who lack a high degree of motivation/will.
In reference to this, Siff states “Maintenance of a maximal isometric contraction, however, depends ultimately on autonomic responses produced by muscle fatigue or protective reflexes elicited in the muscles or connective tissues. Motivation may overcome the negative feedback from these tissues for somewhat longer, but voluntary activation of the muscles eventually becomes impossible and rest becomes necessary.”
Re Siff’s comments about coordination. I’m not sure that’s as much of a duration issue as an overall load issue much as there can be with EMS, though with the added issue of CNS load. this can be mitigated by the placement of the work earlier within a training cycle (or the raising of the elements contribution at that time if always present to some degree).
The real issue for me is the duration over which maximal work can be maintained. If you believe in a strictly high/low training system, you can’t justify maintaining isos for prolonged contractions, as the next step is the transfer of the average of the work done into the intermediate zone.
Yes, good point, I agree.
Charlie, Am I correct in interpereting this last sentence to mean that the extended durations at sub-max MVCF fall into the neural purgatory of too high to recover from in short time span and too low to yield increases in (in this case) I have no idea.LOL
Alternatively, in reference to the duration over which maximal work can be maintained; wasn’t the iso hold intensity (RE the Schroeder discussion) considered to be sub-max, hence, the ‘safe’ indicator? Which, by the way, also escapes me.
When you refer to the duration over which max work can be maintained how are you quantifying duration? (eg duration of a set, or number of workouts of max intensity work)
From what I have been able to gather Schroeder uses iso’s for prolonged periods to develop strength-flexibility and hypertrophy. Schroeder calls them vanity exercises. CT has written about these in his book.
Shorter holding periods of 6 to 8 secs are used if he is training absolute strength and power.
Steve, I think I would say yes and no to why schroeder uses isometrics, I have read many reasons, such as long isometrics holds fatigue the slow twitch muscle fibers and as time passes your body calls upon more powerful fibers to complete the same hold…also prolonged isometrics teach muscle control and tension, try holding a push up for five minutes you will start to feel or turn on muscles in your shoulders…back…even legs to maintain the hold, and another reason prolonged isometrics might be used for such long periods such as 5-30minutes is mental toughness, you really test how bad you want to hold on when the pain sets it!!! It is a cool way to have a great argument with yourself, set a time like five minutes, when you get to like four minutes and you are burnning you start to talk to yourself and try to convince the voices to stay up!!! or Maybe it is just me and of course those five other people that are always talking to me!!! :eek: Hope this helps and any other insight on this topic would be well apreciated!!! Thanks
the long holds arent for hypertophy although hypertrophy nay be a byproduct. also they are not the vanity excercises that jay has talked about. they have a very, very important purpose in jay’s program, training to train so to speak, but they do work on strength-flexibility if you would want to call it that.
asd123 the holds are difficult but, for example in the push up position you would not use other muscles that u did not start excercise with to maintain the excercise. so u wouldnt start using your legs and other muscles to keep the excercise going. if u did jay would stop the clock and u would have to start over. the muscles they train with those holds are specific and muscle exertion should not spread to other muscle groups.
James, it appears as if you possess the most accurate information on Jay’s approach to training.
This being said, could you elaborate on the training goal of employing extremely prolonged isometric holds with appreciable load.
James, so in doing the iso extreme push ups, the main focus I assume would be the bench press muscles? Is this correct? Also when you hold the positions do you ever find yourself focusing on tightening the whole body more when you get tired? There is no change in body position but just a tigheter contraction of all the muscles in the body as you fatigue…whenever I do the holds I find this to occur, I am probably doing them wrong but as long as your body position does not change would that be cause to restart the isometric hold?
THanks
jay’s iso usage has to do with the joint angle at the extreme angle the muscle is stretched and is conditioned to stay elongated during states of fatigue… among other things.
the way jay described it to me you should recruit the muscles that are applicable to what you are trying to train. for example in a wall squat are you recruiting the same muscles that you would while running, are you in the proper and most effecient position activating the right muscles for your given training goal. its not just about holding a certain position, anyone can hold a postion for 5 min, its firing the appropriate muscle groups to most effeciently achieve your goal in the given training session. if you are doing anything other than this you are training the muscle groups wrong and you wont see the results.
From Freak of Training – ‘extended biceps curl (primary biceps exercise)’ Schroeder states there are 2 reasons why we would do these exercises:
1.Balance the biceps with the triceps
2.The better you feel and look the better you will perform (a vanity exercise), if you feel strong generally you will perform strong
With reference to point 2 then this is not correct??
he is talking about that excercise specifically (ie training the biceps) not iso holds in general.
oops…sorry
Could you expand a little more on the benefits of prolonged iso holds, in general. Training to train reminds me of the ‘no pain no gain days’ - what about the SAID principle. Don’t take any of this to offence just trying to understand a little more:)
It sounds like James has much more experience as far as Jay’s methods and reasoning than I do, but I’ll throw my views in here.
Isometric advantages are great, but limited. They are capable of producing more force than any other type of muscle action (concentric, eccentric, isokinetic, etc.), so the resultant training effect is greater. A limiting factor is that the training effect is generally focused at the specific joint angle that the exercise is performed at. However, as the agonist is placed at “extreme” extension (such as the pecs and anterior delts during extreme elevated isometric pushup) the absolute strength gains will be developed over the full range of motion.
Prolonged isometric actions can be used to develope many components of endurance, namely strength endurance and starting strength endurance. A great aspect of prolonged isometrics is the fact that as the active muscle fibers begin to fatigue, other muscle fibers within the same muscle will be activated to sustain the action. This will stimulate a greater quantity of the fibers within the specific muscles, yeilding a greater training effect. It is key to, as James stated, discontinue the exercise when technique begins to suffer from fatigue to prevent compensation by other muscles not within the focus of the exercise.
Again, this is my interpretation of the methods, Jay may have completely different reasoning. Please correct me if I am wrong James.