We are trying to progress things on, I for one deliberately agitate and shake things up so that discussion moves on…I really do not care if any pre-conceptions or theories or information I have is refuted or amended by the opinions of the forum, what I do care about is having the correct information. Give us something to talk about and it may lead to a fruitful outcome. I assume that you have no one running close to the world record that may loose a medal at the next OG if you were to share this information, do you?
So please, grace this site with your pearls of wisdom.
the extreem cases r actually in the field event. according to sport scientests Burke and Coll 1977 and others shot-putters and discuss thrower where found, in extreem cases, to has upto 87% fast twitch but the average was the same as the average for sprinters and jumpers.
so yeah, ur right they did’nt do track, the did field.
very simple question… how are you measuring the level of intramuscular coordination between black athletes and white athletes, and how in gods hell can a neurological learning factor be genetically based?
I certainly can and I do. He ran 10.07 in the SF and an easy 10.14 in the Final on a crap track.
I feel highly qualified to say what is and isn’t such a performance (and also who is a clown).
First off I would again like to reiterate that this whole thread is pointless and in no way is going to help us run faster or improve in any way, shape, or form. Yes, there is slight genetic tendencies that seem to favor speed, but again, who cares. Find ways to improve on what you/your athletes have and go from there. Otherwise it is too easy to sink into the ‘whoa is me, I/my athletes have no talent. Why was I so unlucky’ scenario as an excuse instead of looking more diligently for ways to improve.
Now to address the fast twitch comment, one thing we need to keep in mind is throwers, linemen, etc. are all going to have a large amount of fast twitch fibers. This is likely for a combination of reasons. First, there is no special end. in throwing events, so all their work is almost exclusively explosive(high force/high rate in very short bursts, even compared to a sprinter).
Secondly, throwers/lineman are all large and very muscular people. Since we know that hypertrophy is much more likely to occur in type II’s, and also assuming that they are training correctly(again heavy weights and/or light weights at the maximum possible velocity) then we can probably assume that the large amounts of muscle mass acquired through their training is largely fast twitch, so this can skew the ratio favorably in terms of %'s of fast vs. slow.
Also keep in mind that they do not have to worry as much about body wieght restrictions. Not that it is not important as even throwers have a very high 1rm in comparison to their body weight, which is needed for the acceleration and explosiveness, but it is less of a concern than it might be for a sprinter. This is, of course the reason that throwers are quite large. As such, they can eat without worrying too much about getting ‘too big’. And a hypocaloric or even a maintenance number of calories can also cause favorable effects in terms of fast vs. slow. The surplus of food keeps testosterone as well as thyroid hormones high, among others. These two hormones both influence the amount of fast vs. slow ratios as well. Believe it or not, all those fat lazy slobs you see stuffing themselves at the buffett line actually have an high ratio in terms of fast vs. slow. Hypocaloric intake and little to no work to avoid fast to slow conversion.
So there you have it. If you want to develop a much higher type II vs. Type I than what you currently have, then either work out and eat like a thrower or become a fat, lazy slob.
So you keep on talking about intra-muscular co-ordination…unless you can add more its pointless talking about it unless you can show or explain how to improve intra-muscular co-ordination, which by the way improves as a by-product of training using sprints, weights plyo and technique, nothing new to add.
you can find it in all forums…someone comes from nothing, says something against eeveryone and agaist common sense, and give nothing to support…lack of intramuscolar coordination???this evolution took place in 30 years?before that , african people were supposed not to be able to run fast, then to run for long…and so on…
Borzov run 20"00 at sea level…in 1972 shit rubber track, beating EVERYONE, USA , jam and so on…
Many fail to understand that social issues are stronger than genetical in this particular situation…I’d like to read the research stating that afro american peole ha s a “sporting ability gene”…what is that?maybe has the shape of a football…off course we do not find a champioship winning black QB because they lack the " read the defense gene"…
y know what? ur all right, white r genetically inferior due 2 muscle fibers and all the rest of it. the white man will always b eating dust from the black sprinters spikes because when the mind has a limiter it will never surpass it. so enjoy the final from the stands guys because that’s the closest u’ll come 2 being in that race.
borzov would have done this and that bt he did’nt and never will, no matter who says what.
i still stand by what i said first, the greatest/best coach is he who can produce the goods and only time will tell. until then everyone can go on guessing, being quallified, formulating (scientifically disproved) theories and wondering why the results don’t come.
after all everyone is an expert bt very very few actually can produce the goods.
Borzov not the greatest white sprinter ? Mennea and Rossouw surpassed him ? Oh yes it’s because you don’t believe altitude assists sprinters. Woronin is actually the first white man to run under 10sec (rounded up) but his championship record (even at european level) doesn’t even match Borzov. Which is better, Woronin’s 10.00 with +2.0m/s wind or Borzov 10.07 with zero wind easy down at the end (quarter final) twelve years before? Not talking about the 20.00 with arm raised, which is intrinsecally better than Mennea’s 19.72 with altitude and wind +1.8 stepping into the inside lane.
Elio Locatelli has been envolved in several studies comparing Italian (Causasian) sprinters and Senegalese sprinters. The lastest published might be “Difference in morphology and force/velocity relationship between Senegalese and Italian sprinters” (Eur J Appl Physiol 91 (2004) 399-405). The conclusion was : (i hope i don’t violate any copyright rule)
“This study, comparing Senegalese and Italian sprinters performing at similar levels, found that the Caucasian group developed greater knee extensor muscle force at high contraction velocity than the Black African group. This was probably to compensate, to an undetermined degree, for morphological differences, since the Senegalese had longer legs and lower limb inertia”. However, as stated in the study, Senegal doesn’t rule African sprint unlike Nigerians and Ghaneans. It is also obvious that senegaleses and Nigerians sprinters have different morphology. Among blacks, you have many different types, so all these controversies about white and black are really useless.
Concerning stats, at the end of 2001 season (sorry i haven’t updated these lists from http://web.telia.com/~u19603668/atb-m01.htm)
Performers at 10.30 or under:
38 Nigeria
11 Ghana
5 Ivory Cost
4 Cameron
2 Kenya
2 Namibie
2 Senegal
2 Sierra-Leone
Leonard Myles-Mills is as different as Frankie Fredericks, just as Borzov and Peter Karlsson (9.98w).
Sometimes we have the chance to have visits on this forum from Karlson’s coach “Andersson” and he had interesting insights about black/white subject.
Since he doesn’t post often here, i dig up a part of one of his post http://www.charliefrancis.com/community/showthread.php?t=11304&page=3&pp=15
"In my contacts with the coaches to some world class sprinters have I concluded that these sprinters do not exceed our sprinters in jumping ability nor in maximal strength or power capacity measured with the MusceLab system. For some this might sound surprising because these individual most likely posses extremely high percentage of FT-fibers. The difference in jumping ability and ability to produce power in non sprint specific tests might be explained that these qualities are by tradition very important part of most European sprint-coaches training protocol. Since plyometrics assumingly recruit the highest threshold MU at a very high discharge rate it has become a very popular and effective training method in many sports that has a high demand on fast and powerful muscle contractions. Still many of the world’s fastest men don’t do much plyometrics.
Ability to maximally recruit fibers but unability to relax while sprinting is probably one reason why there is relatively faster 60m times produced by European sprinters than in the 100m every year. In 60m there is a large component of acceleration where maximal recruitment will in fact be very usefull. Another limiting factor might be that the viscoelastic properties of muscle-tendon complex needed to run 12m/s is not best developed with extreme plyometric activities. On the contrary, the motor programs developed in such activities might in fact be contra productive for world class sprinting.
Some Swedish sprinters with good acceleration capabilities have been very successful especially in the 60m indoors (world championship finals and European medals). These sprinters have not been even near in reproducing the same level of sprinting in 100m. This can’t solely be explained by lack of talent. In my view there must be something in the design of their training too. I feel that we and many other have been overemphasizing the importance of maximal strength and powertraining for our sprinters.
Is it possible that excessive maximal lifting and to extreme jumping exercises might disturb sprint performance? Is there a risk that if non specific training is taking to large proportion there might be a risk that it will obstruct the learning of an for sprinting optimal motor pattern? Isn’t it possible that maximal velocity sprinting with to much tension will be negative from a metabolic perspective?
Please observe that I’m generalizing heavily and I do understand that sprint performance is limited by a wide spectrum of trainable and non trainable factors. And for sure, the most limiting factors are to be found in the genes of the athlete and not in the excellence of their training."
What we need to see, for the benifit of the sport, is a bunch of white tallented guys, to train under CF and to believe that whilst under CF, a sub 10 is not only possable, but a WR is within reach! Particually the 4x100m, that would show depth.
are u serious. what are u going to go to all the local elementry schools do some testing train someone for 10 years and then report back… arnie im not arguing that white athletes cant be great, im black but i still believe white athletes can go sub 10. my problem is your assertion that intermuscular coordination is genetically based.
firstly u can’t compare borzov 2 mennea, altitude or not( and by the way i know that altitude affects the times)because they r simply not on the same level. pietro mennea was the fastest man alive 4 almost 17 yrs (on average top speed, of corse)
white or black. to give u an idea of what he achieved, the great michael johnson ran the 200 at almost exactly the same altitude an exactly the same following wind 1.8 m/s, his time 19.71s his best time run out side the special atlanta track which does not exist anymore. a 19.32 man with the same conditions almost to the T, only bettered mennea’s time by .01s. think about that one!
if altitude makes SUCH a big difference y don’t they go 2 the track and do the business, the tracks r avalible, tim tried bt failed he only ran 10.04.
i think it’s best 2 speak about what ppl did because what they could have done count 4 nothing!!!
i enjoyed ur piece, it was intressting bt it does’nt change anything, i’m still sticking 2 my gunns.because i have my evidence 2 prove what i say. at the end the results will speak louder than words
