Who are you refering to Victor Ubogo who placed for England and some of those Kenyan boys who did well on the 7’s circuit? Do you guys consider the Fijians, Samoans and Tongans as black? This takes me back to my previous question, what is black and what is white and where do we put all the in betweens in this whole argument?
I can only speak from experience and to be honest in the UK, Tennis and Rugby are played by the boys of rich affluent families, who are predominantly…White people. Very few other races play rugby in the UK, but recently things have began to change. I dare say that Rugby was the sport of the the “elite” in South Africa whilst black people played football/soccer is that not right?Rugby has a race divide that still exists even though its becoming more appealing to black youth in the UK. So once again we can see that its nothing to do with one race being more adept at rugby than another but the outcome of oppurtunities and tradition.
I agree with every damn word you are saying. In South Africa, before 1991 when we had the racially based system of Apartheid where we were all classified as black (as of African decent), white or colored (as in a mix of black and white or decedents of the people who lived right at the southern tip of Africa many years ago and where lighter in complexion). The colored people are very proud people, who do not consider themselves black, or white.
I you check my earlier posts you will see that I state that the best performers in the sprints in South Africa at present are the colored and white athletes, always have. Arguments will fly in that socio-economic factors play a major role, and it probably did up to 1991, we’ve all had equal right for 15 years now, and still the top sprinters in the country are not black.
Google South Africa’s Athletics Association and look at the top 10 lists for 2006 up to 800m you are hard pressed to find to many ‘blacks’ (as of African decent).
For a start I was referring to All Black greats from George Nepia through Waka Nathan past Michael Jones to the likes of Tana Umaga. I would defy anyone to not classify them as great rugby players. I could go on with the likes of George Gregan.
In league the most capped player in history is Ruben Wiki, what about Martin Offiah?
Who could argue with Waisale Serevi being the King of 7’s? The only other contender would be Eric Rush who is Maori.
Each of those people come from blood lines that are predominately non European and in each case would never consider themselves white.
Imaging the big boy in the 110 hurdles. He’ll go straight through them.
You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Football = tens of millions of dollars potentially with even guys on the practice squad (not even on the team) sometimes making ~$75,000. If you make a team, your minimum is a bit over $200,000/year. UTfoootball can comment a bit more since he has more first hand experience with this, but rugby cannot even compare financially. Rugby doesn’t really compare in pay to say the least.
Loads of people can run fast but can they to it whilst changing direction, handing off people, looking for space to run into and still be tactically aware of what is going on, all whilst running at full pace? No they can’t. The point being: a highly complex game like rugby does not rely on stats to produce great players, it is a completely different athlete that plays the game, different from American Football and most certainly Track and Field. The greatest rugby player at the moment is Dan Carter of NZ. A genius on the rugby pitch, yet no one in rugby knows, or frankly cares, about how quick he runs or how much he squats.
Have you ever watched an American football game? You are so off base I barely know what to say. Pro rugby players are nothing athletically compared to the top players in the NFL. You have to be able to move to play American football. Ever heard of Barry Sanders, Reggie Bush, etc.?
By the way, those high school kids you’ll bring would most probably run quicker than most rugby players, only because they’d be so shit scared of being tackled without pads and helmets and people blocking defenders.
lol okay bud. If rugby players were so great and skilled, they would play American football and earn a boat load of cash playing linebacker or something like that. Fact is they don’t and probably won’t. If black people from the Carribean and North America start playing rugby, then it will be a different story, but there really isn’t any money or desire in doing it.
Rugby does not have a race divide in South Africa. It is a political statement that has been taken way out of proportion. Rugby is not an elitist sport at all. In the eastern region of the country rugby is by far the most popular game among all racial lines. In most affluent areas today kids prefer playing soccer. The problem and the perception that rugby is racially divided stems from the fact that rugby is the dearest thing after his/her religion for a Afrikaans speaking person (white or colored), much like for a Kiwi. We all know that the Afrikaners drove Apartheid back in the day and from the political connotation. Cultural lines not racial lines devide Rugby in South Africa.
The $200,000 minimum is if it is your first year in the NFL and goes up every year. The new zealand average is less than that.
I think I need the Kiwi boys’ help on this one. (You have to help me a South African just called Dan Carter the greatest rugby player.)
What are you on about? I am talking about physical stats. In rugby no one cares how fast you can do a 30yrd dash or how heavy you can squat.
Agreed they might be more athletic. but that is the whole point. Most NFL/College players get contracted on the basis of physical testing and athletic ability. Rugby players get contracted on what they do on the field, score tries, scum well etc etc. You can be the slowest person around (eg George Gregan) and still be one of the greatest rugby players. Because rugby is a multi dimensional sport, unlike American Football which is completely linear, the greatest rugby players are players with brilliant perception, skills in a multitude of areas and not necessarily physical ability.[/QUOTE]
Most rugby players value the tradition of the game to much. NFL is just to much of a show, try watching the NZ boys do the Haka next time, that is authentic. Most rugby players love the sport too much, and will choose it over the money any day. Google on the former USA Eagle captain Dan Lyle who actually chose rugby union over a million-dollar deal with a NFL team. And quite frankly most rugby players will find American football boring, if you keep in mind that any player in a rugby game can do anything he likes kick, run, tackle and most importantly score points and actually stays on the field for the whole match.
So you guys classify any one not of European descent as black. Like 90% of the AB’s? What is a guy like Carlos Spencer who is half Maori half European?
So what is your final analysis of the success or lack of black players in Rugby?
Is sports culture not based on tradition and oppurtunity?
I never mentioned race as the divide in your country I offered oppurtunity and tradition as the outcome of the status quo. But since you mention race, I think its fair to say that it played a massive part in determining what sport people followed in the past and STILL influences the choices taken by youth in the participation of a sport.
Its fascinating to hear that those who are considered coloured disassociate themselves from blacks in Zimbabwe and South Africa…suprise suprise this a vestage of aparthied (in the UK coloured as you call them consider themselves to be closer to black culture and celebrate and mix with all). So if such thinking exists in your country then is it not fair to say that 15 year is STILL a relatively short time for things to equal out?
Once upon a time he would have been called “half cast” and rejected only being accepted by the non-european side, but when it suits people they re-label others to make up their numbers or use them as a device to make a point. I am sure times have changed.
lol okay speed means nothing then
Agreed they might be more athletic. but that is the whole point. Most NFL/College players get contracted on the basis of physical testing and athletic ability. Rugby players get contracted on what they do on the field, score tries, scum well etc etc. You can be the slowest person around (eg George Gregan) and still be one of the greatest rugby players. Because rugby is a multi dimensional sport, unlike American Football which is completely linear, the greatest rugby players are players with brilliant perception, skills in a multitude of areas and not necessarily physical ability.
Might be? lol
How is American Football linear and rugby multi-dimentional? What the hell are you even talking about? You don’t get contracted just because of physical testing–Jerry Rice isn’t very fast or strong compared to other NFL guys and is the #1 receiver of all time. The Mannings have never exactly killed the combine or any testing and got pretty decent contracts… If you can’t play well or have not shown the potential to play well (beyond a 40yd time) you are not going to get anything. It may help you get in the door, but it won’t keep you.
Most rugby players value the tradition of the game to much. NFL is just to much of a show, try watching the NZ boys do the Haka next time, that is authentic. Most rugby players love the sport too much, and will choose it over the money any day. Google on the former USA Eagle captain Dan Lyle who actually chose rugby union over a million-dollar deal with a NFL team. And quite frankly most rugby players will find American football boring, if you keep in mind that any player in a rugby game can do anything he likes kick, run, tackle and most importantly score points and actually stays on the field for the whole match.
So they wouldn’t like the over $1mill/year AVERAGE salary? No top rugby players would? Riiiiiiight. NFL just a show? lol have you ever seen a game? You have got to be kidding me just stop with the BS.
My honest opinion as someone who played rugby for many years against all races, cultures etc. Blacks, at least in SA, do not enjoy the contact part of the game as most of the rest of us do. You will find the finest ‘black’ again as in African players playing on the wing.
Is culture not base on tradition and oppurtunity?
I agree, you pick up the games your friends play or your parents and teachers encourage you to play. In SA you get blacks who only play rugby and whites who only play soccer
I think in SA colored consider themselves a bit whiter than black because of language and culture more than skin color. Most coloreds in SA speak Afrikaans like a fair percentage of whites and our way of live is pretty much the same. Blacks or Africans like they are called here have a completely different way of live than the whites, colored, Indians etc in SA. To put the colored peoples’ classification of themselves into perspective: you’ll be hard pressed to find a colored person who speaks any of the nine indigenous African languages in our country, it either Afrikaans of English, the two languages the Europeans brought out here.
who cares who’s the best rugby player or swimmer or foot ball player or wrestler. this discution is not about who is the best race .it’s about the potential of the white sprinter been able 2 preform at the highest level and even having the possibility of being the fastest.
it does’nt matter who is the best in the other sport, at least not on this web page. if someone wants 2 compare the performaces in the other sports they should visit those sportses web site. :mad:
Correct me if I am wrong but the qualities of a winger are 1/ speed 2/ skills 3/ tackling. So if that is the case, then why is it that you find a disproportionate amount of black players in wing positions yet you seem to suggest that because the top 10 100m times are held by whites and “coloureds” blacks are not that fast… yet you have now just typed that they are in positions on a rugby pitch that rely on speed.
Is it not fair to say that most townships in the past and most blacks did not get the oppurtunities for their talented athletes to train to a level that allowed them post fast times?
By your own admission coloureds as you call them have a culture more akin to whites in SA and so were much higher up the pecking order…and so oppurtunity allowed them to run on faster tracks and compete in more organised events, is that not the case?
What is meant by it being linear is that the play travels in the same direction the whole time. Back to the quaterback, forward to the receiver. Touch Down. Same thing again. The defence does one thing, the quaterback just about two things, the receiver three things. Everyone has very one-dimentional jobs on the field. The punter can’t decide he wants to take the ball and run for a touch down, or to go and tackle someone. Point being: he does not need any of those skills. A wide receiver does not need any kicking skills and the quaterback does not have to tackle anyone. In rugby union every man on the field need a combination of those skills. The games moves in all directions at all times and no one gets to sit on the bench and rest every couple of minutes. Every man on the rugby field needs all the basic skills of which there are hundreds plus specific ones for their position. In American football you only need a specific skill for your position.
If the greatest receiver of all time is not the fastest or strongest of them all, then why the hell do you keep on harping about how quick American Football players are and their brilliant physical ablilties? You just proved that skill in contact ball sports or the combination of skill and physical ability is more important that just physical ability. Maybe if there were more Jerry Rice types out there who actually could play and who were not overtly concearned about how fast or how strong they are American Football would be less of a show and more of a sport. QUOTE]
I don’t think its an issue in my mind; look to Borzov and Minnea as your inspiration , it can be done. If you are looking for some kind of magical training plan that suits white athletes only, then forget it, the solution has been offered unclattered and clearly presented by Charlie in his manuals and this site.
Track and Feild athletes are concerned about speed and strength, so is T&F more of a show or is it a sport?
You need position specific skillS, yes, but there are more than 1 skill. A quarterback passes, yes, but are you going to really try to simplify probably the toughest position in the game and one of the hardest in all of sport? Reading and checking down the coverages in seconds, reading the blitz, calling an audible, etc. are quite different skills, besides being able to throw fast and accurately on the move and sometimes even having to run the ball or block.
If the greatest receiver of all time is not the fastest or strongest of them all, then why the hell do you keep on harping about how quick American Football players are and their brilliant physical ablilties? You just proved that skill in contact ball sports or the combination of skill and physical ability is more important that just physical ability. Maybe if there were more Jerry Rice types out there who actually could play and who were not overtly concearned about how fast or how strong they are American Football would be less of a show and more of a sport. QUOTE]
lol WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?? THERE ARE PLENTY OF PEOPLE OUT THERE THAT HAVE SKILLS. THEY HAVE SKILLS AND PHYSICAL ABILITY.
American Football less of a show and more of a sport? You are an idiot seriously. Rugby features smaller, slower, and less explosive players who play a game that does not have wide participation. Guys in the NFL are big, fast, AND skilled. You have missed the point. Go read over some things and watch an NFL game before you call it a show or a game. Better yet, go look at some NFL players in person before deciding they are just there for show.