Please clean up your language, it doesn’t add anything to the discussion. I think that part of the confusion is in how you write in this thread (The neural strength thread is much easier to follow).
Back to the subject at hand, I am inclined to agree with your statement about the adaptation of connective tissue on a qualitative level, but the engineer in me looks at the forces involved and don’t see a difference (except in concentration of loading). i am confused about your statement as to why the connective tissue would not adapt in the same manner. Could you care to elaborate on the difference in mechanism? (Even if you only have a “hunch”, why do you have it?)
sorry buddy im going to write how a write if you need clarification ask and you will receive but im not going to change how I do anything to suit other peoples desires. sorry.
anyway, vibration does elicit similar neurological adaptation relative to the frequency of vibration. but tissue also adapts to stresses placed upon it and these stresses aren’t experienced in the same way that they occur via other means. there are positive passive tissue adaptations as vibrational training is used to build bone density in astronauts who experience a sharp decline in bone density due to the absence of gravity. so with drop jumps there is an experience of compression forces and a larger recruitment of the available motor unit. you get what one might call an all or get fucked response because if your body didn’t turn on maximally the forces would destroy the body.
That’s nuts man! I have read several pieces of data that say their worthless and some that say they are of marginal use at best. Guess I will have to look again. You use vertical or horizontal vibration? Which device?
One recent study from Norway may be a straw in the wind for future research and training techniques, despite its modest findings. In one of the few studies to have incorporated external resistance equipment into vibration training, researchers wanted to compare the performance enhancing effects of doing barbell squats on a vibration platform as against doing the same exercise on solid ground. Fourteen recreationally trained men took part over five weeks, with one group performing their squats on the platform and a second group squatting on a normal surface. Both groups followed the same training regime at 6-10 repetition maximum (RM).
Testing at the start and end of the study consisted of 1RM barbell squat and maximum jump height in counter movement jump (standing vertical jump).
Both groups significantly increased their 1RM performance, and although the vibration platform group did not outperform the other group to a statistically significant level, the Norwegian team concluded that the results ‘point toward a tendency of superiority of squats performed on a vibration platform’
RØnnestad, BR (2004). Comparing the performance enhancing effects of squats on a vibration platform with conventional squats in recreationally resistance trained men. Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research 18 (4): 839-845
Just another study to add another perspective, not quite sure at the end y they still found it superior without statistical significance however.
Honestly IMO I dont think there is near enough research yet to make any definative statement yet, not enough research to say its garbage and definately not enough information to say its the same as doing 2000 depth jumps.
From my perspective as a student, I will run a little or harder or eat a little better if I want to get that little bit better, I dont have the $7,000 to shell out for this.
In the end it will probably end up being one of the many it has its time and its place elements in training like most other fads in the performance arena.
The verts the only way, I am putting my neck out on this I can’t hide because people have access to them. All I can say is try it out. Lets just say that you will be stronger at the very least… and we all know what happens when you are very strong. The effects are even greater when done with conventional training.
How can you call this a “fad” orsay it will end up as one? The thing works believe me its not a FAD… There is a direct effect on acceleration. Recovery is improved, explosiveness is increased. You can handle more weights. I have PERSONALLY experienced this. I have access to one 24/7…it works. It does what it says its supposed to do. Its not a FAD.
People still call EMS a FAD even now ,even after CF has explained how it can be utilised in training. Some people STILL can’t see any benefits from conventional strength training after all the practical physiological research to say that it works…
No one is saying that you need to shell out 7000USD, all I am saying is that the thing works, if you have access to one then its worth a try. If not then conventional plyo and strength training is still even more of A MUST.
Most of the research that has found (Whole Body Vibrations) WBV ineffective have been those that try to mix conventional training with the training regimen. WBV are ISOMETRIC in other words YOU MUST NOT MOVE when on the platform. Second YOU MUST NOT ADD LOAD to your body otherwise it produces a lesser response. Its like trying to do ab work on a swiss ball…why? This is why some researchers have not found an effect because they have broken the isometric rule… and mixed dynamic with static. You can (and really you must) do conventional training but not on the platform.
RØnnestad, BR (2004). Comparing the performance enhancing effects of squats on a vibration platform with conventional squats in recreationally resistance trained men. Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research 18 (4): 839-845
This study is flawed WBV should not be done dynamically and ESPECIALLY not with conventional squats with a squat bar ON YOUR BACK!!!
Again WBV are ISOMETRIC. SQUATS are DYNAMIC. mixing the two ie DOING A SQUAT WITH 200KG ON YOUR BACK on a vibration platform WOULD BE MADNESS ITS LIKE DOING WEIGHTS ON A SWISS BALL…WHY?
Its like trying to do weights whilst you have an EMS machine rigged up on your muscles…
“You can’t please all of the people all of the time”.
Once again, don’t shoot the messenger.
Again WBV are ISOMETRIC. SQUATS are DYNAMIC. mixing the two ie DOING A SQUAT WITH 200KG ON YOUR BACK WOULD BE MADNESS ITS LIKE DOING WEIGHTS ON A SWISS BALL…WHY?
your right vibration can be I very useful tool in training but just like anything else, a max squat, a altitude drop, a sprint, it’s a tool and you cant build a house with just a hammer. but what is really funny is that people have actually been selling these platforms for $7000 when you could with a little knowledge and a machinists handbook build a vibrational platform. hell jay Schroeder use to use vibration years ago and only used hand held vibrators. paying $7000 for a vibrating platform is a joke really it is.
But your body is experiencing compressive forces but at 2-5gs , and in a fraction of the time on the platform (remember the frequency is far greater than in a depth jump) so I don’t see what you are trying to say?
Connective tissue will be affected and muscle mass will be maintained. The reason why NASA is so interested is because WBV maintains muscle, bone AND tendon.
This is what i was referring to in my previous post. According to physics, depth jumps and vibration can put the same compressional forces on the skeliton and musculature. How would this create a different adaptive response? The only difference is in the duration of the load (not per oscillatory period, but per session). I would be curious to see the spectrum of the vibration forces and compare it to the spectrum of a depth jump forces. The might be some evidence of the similarity/disimilarity between the two.
awesome thread here people. Just keep it nice and polite and the info flowing.
I want to know more about vibration plates, mainly as how i can build one myself and how Schroeder used handheld ones?
I must get his dvd with archuleta. He goes through some of the depth jump stuff i think in it.
So Martyn what do you prescribe as a typical Vibration Plate workout? Volume per week?
Thanks
it doesnt give you a training system because it would be impossible to do that via video with jays system but it does give some interesting insights into what he does.
My dumbass watched that video and then, while already out of shape from a sprained ankle, tried to do the drop jump lunge landing. The one with big words, “DO NOT DO THIS AT HOME UNLESS YOU HAVE CONSULTED WITH JAY SCHROEDER” etc…young and foolish…
And…I avulsed my lesser trochanter, played in a football game 2 days later, and didn’t see a doc til about 2 months later. And the initial injury lead to osteitis pubis eventually which put me out for about 15 months.
I hope Jay Schroeder gets hit by a train…just kidding.
The video isn’t so great anyways as there are no application guidelines. Just a bunch of sexy exercises. And one sexy girl…
So, save your money and get some of Charlie’s products instead or save up to an electric timer or something. If you have Netflix, and want to see a jacked, explosive guy do tricks, then sure, put it in your queue. I’d rather watch Le Parkour guys on Youtube though.
Volume per week would typically be 6x60secs min @ 25Hz with a high amplitude with 60 secs recovery. This is done as the last session on speed days.
Its important to note that EMS and whole body vibrations and plyometrics train the isometric qualities of muscle. Eccentrics are also trained by plyo and WBV…thats an important point to make. I may add that the CNS is also affected by WBV and hormonal output from the testes and pituitary gland are also affected.
Vubration is a useful tool and works well - some of the data i have seen show massive improvements in jump hiehgt. i like local vibration as well. But i think you underestimate engineering, building a vibration platform is hard. If it was easy Powerplate would be able to do it better! You pay 7000 because doing all that machining yourself and the wiring it all up, not electricuting yourself and then making sure it lasts longer than a few minutes takes a lot of effort. Its cheapter just to buy one.