Just a few points,
I wouldn’t draw conclusions from single examples.
From your own data and excluding standing, 81% of what you’ve posted is of low intensity; I regard this to be of some value and improved via aerobic training.
If no aerobic training is used, how would you support recovery from the high intensity work on the field?
By aerobic work, I don’t mean long duration, continuous runs, but tempo work, as “defined” in this forum, which actually can help explosion, if used correctly.
Hamstrings can be greatly damaged, if no low intensity work is used and not the other way round, in my opinion. Although there are other aspects to take into account, too.
Any programme that is interrupted will mess up things and it’s bound to cause injuries, as consistency is disturbed and new adaptations are required by individuals. The latter was made even worse with the employment of long distance running.
And lastly, we’ll never know if the original programme would take them through the whole season with the same positive results, despite their lack of injuries initially -only speculation, I understand.
PS to answer to another post, don’t expect any huge values even at this level; well trained, of course!
On my opinion, aerobic training can lead to injury (what injury, during game or during aerobic running?) because of this:
Too much ephasis of low intensity high volume continuous running
Not doing specific SAQ (speed agility quickness) work
So if you GPP starts like this (without any SAQ) it will certainly lead to an over-use injury (because high volume or low int. running) or over-load injury because suddenly switching to SAQ work… Everything should be done, only the volume varies!
Just thoughts…
[QUOTE=duxx]Here is some information from Bompa “periodisation book” about energy sources for football
ATP/CP 60-80%
LA 20%
O2 0-10%
I dont know how he get this results (and this result is strongly dependent on player position) but after he said that aerobic capacity is very important for recovery in soccer.
FireBird, if soccer is not aerobic sport (certainly not like distance running) from wich sources would you pay “oxigen debt”? From KI (or CHI)?
Duxx,
Not sure which Bompa info you received your data from, but Bompa did time motion analysis on soccer and this is the latest data he published:
ATP / CP = 15%
LA = 15%
O2 = 70%
Dominant energy system per position:
Position ATP/CP LA O2
Goalie X
Defender X X
Midfielder X X
Forward X X X
Average distance covered in km
(per position)
Position
Forward 9.5
Midfield 11
Full back 8.5
Sweeper 6
First The data I posted are from Periodization: Theory and methology of training. But not original. Croation translation, so maybe there is a print error or translator error… Pretty sure I diddnt make mistake reading… Second This numbers dont talk much… I mean on % of energy sources. Why I say this is because methology of measurement wich consists of:
What do you want to measure
How do you measure
How long is the time frame of measurement
How do you evaluate data
So basicaly, if your time frame is 2h, sprinting is 100% aerobic, but if your time frame is 10sec it purely ATP/CP (with little glicolysis, anaerobic). So I want to say, everything you do is payed off with aerobic sources because you need to return your homeostatics to normal…
On my opininon this numbers are USELESS!
Other data you posted (average distance, mode of running) are USEFULL! so tnx for the data…
so basicaly you are saying that if you have less time prepare to season you should do things that arent developed in season itself (by game)? In case of soccer you should be doing general work (tempo etc)? Is this what you ment Charlie? Little strange but logical…
I agree with what you are saying Charlie, the more I continue to train all-sports conditioning to various athletes, the more I begin to understand. The need for special endurance for football, soccer, baseball, hockey is zero. Since I have changed that thinking, speed and power qualities have inproved for all my athletes.
I do have a question about strength endurance in Phase I Speed Progression - Short to Long,
the ‘strength endurance’ are those A runs, postural type of exercises. And also should there be much of a rest interval.
Duxx,
I also agree I was only giving you the present data I have. I do however think all this data is important. I think data is valuable if it proves or disproves the realities of training. The tempo work has allowed the athletes I train to improve their ability to replace the o2 debt when they compete, and still not interfere with the development of strength and power qualities that ‘define’ them as athletes.
The less time you have, the more you should concentrate to the left of the F/T curve- that’s speed and power.
The aerobic componant is already in place from the season, so all that’s needed is enough to keeps the muscles loose for the speed and power work. aerobic conditioning takes a long time to gain AND conversely a long time to loose, so a short period away from this emphasis will pose no problem at all. This is what so many miss.
As for Tudor’s numbers, they are a good way to tell you what you don’t need to worry about.
I would think Charlie would be referring to the speed, strength and power qualities that are necessary for performance improvement, as the game itself has many tempo qualities built in it. Tempo work would alternate with speed, strength and power sessions.
Sorry Charlie, did not know you were on, wanted to know if I was on the right track!
Agree that Special End requirements for the sports you mentionned are Zero (therefore, I’d question the suggestion by Tudor that soccer has as much as 15% LA componant, if speed and therefore speed reserve is developed optimally)
In sprinting, Short-to-Long program Strength End work is postural and would have a significant recovery interval. You can see the times in the graph- I assume you’re referring to the graph in Vanc2004 DVD.
I was at the Vanc2004 seminar and I have the package you sent out. In the last column of Monday Friday, strength endurance there is no rep. or set rest times. Could you please help me with that? And would you only use ‘A’ runs 4x30 (is the intensity as high as the athlete can tolerate)?
You could use 1.5 to 2.5min breaks between reps. Each rep should be a walking pace forward, so the coach should walk alongside to prevent the athletes from racing forward to shorten the workload in the later reps
Do you mean the athlete is not going at his highest frequency, but a smooth frequency?
When you say to shorten the work load in later set, do you mean the coach can move faster or cover less distance? Or do you mean as the athlete begins to fatigue they try to go forward to quickly?
Are there other variations, (exercises)(some of the other exercises are not as intense as the running 'A’s), I could use?
When would it be appropriate to use some of the postural exercises in Mach’s book?
The athlete is going at the optmal rate to allow max hip height and extention.
The coach walks beside at a consistent walking speed to prevent the athletes from changing the forward movement time.
All other Mach type drills can and should be used over short distance/duration (AKA Power Speed)
And let us not forget the increasingly widespread use at the highest levels of more complex and comprehensive assessment tools like the Omegawave system,and similar technologies.
A crucial area though -and one where I feel real steps forward can be made and where appropriate investments should be allocated - is always the one taking care of interpreting the data and variables all the tests and assessments in the world can provide,or we’ll end up knowing even the smallest details,but completely ignoring where they properly fit in the big picture…
