can you expand a bit on this Charlie? do you mean that one complements/facilitates the other? and how is this shown in the Omega Wave? Does, for example, show faster CNS recovery after a tempo session?
i MIGHT be able to have a chance to see it in April time… TBC…
thanks!
In my experience, they are complimentary. This is the whole basis of the high/low approach in the first place.
As for the Omega Wave, it shows a very high incidence of readiness in the time-frame required, since you need both the high intensity and the higher tempo volume. Whether or not you could push the high intensity sessions closer together without the Special Endurance is basically irrelevant as they’re already as close as they need to be.
i can’t see that happening anyway, bringing them even closer together;
effectively, that is…
thanks!
Before I explain my vision of soccer tests lets do a little bit of systematisation. Here are the different groups of tests:
We are here interested in physical testing. They can be further splited into non-specific (labaratory etc ) and specific (on the field testing ). To develop the best tests for soccer (game situation is the best test, but how to explain the results of training to “big brothers”) we need to see what kind of activity is in soccer. There are shorts sprints (accelerations) 10-30m and offcourse some direction changing movement (agility, quickness or whatever is it) interchanged by some kind of rest (walking, jogging). Soccer player should be quick (great power for acceleration), shoud be able to change direction and to suddenly stop, but most important they should be able to do this for 90min, so they should have some kind of specific endurance. Is this specific endurance a speed endurance? I think not, because speed endurance is involved in continuous maximal running where the maximal speed should be maintained for prolonged time (or some distance) without serious droping. But in soccer you dont even develop maximal speed nor you run continuously but intervaly. So this specific soccer endurance should be called interval acceleration endurance 
(should I put a trade mark on this?)
But on what physiological mechanism depends speed endurance (SE) and interval acceleration endurance (IAE)? I think that SE depend on ATP/CP contents in muscle and some abitily of CNS to sustain maximal voluntary activity (which of them is priority I dont know). But during soccer actions you dont totaly deplet ATP/CP from muscle, so IAC should depend on ability to fast resistensize ATP/CP from aerobic sources and not to use anaerobic-lactace sources. So my conclusion is that IAC great depends on aerobic capacity (Vomax, OBLA). There should be some research on corelation betwean OBLA and IAC and SE and IAC. But how do we test IAC? Maybe NASE40 or that Yo Yo test (? what is it), but, to conclude, my opinion on testing in soccer should be:
non-specific tests
• Concony test and Astrand on tredmill to find VO2max and anaerobic treshold (OBLA) or running 5km for aerobic capacity
• Clean, jerk, squat, DL (really neccesary ?)
• standing jump, triple jump, high jump for explosiveness
• sprint testing
specific test
• T-test (whit and withoud ball)
• 10-30m accelarations
• Zig-Zag poligons etc
• and for IAE you should do all the above specific test in interval manner with rest interval of about 10-20sec for about 10-15 times and to calculate some kind of index that show drop in performance.
Ofcourse, for testing different soccer players (age, position) you should changes the ratio of poligon distances and rest intervals and number of reps.
Mladen Jovanovic (student)
Faculty of sports and physical education
Dept. of strength training and conditioning
Univerisity in Belgrade
Serbia and Monte Negro
Mladen,
to my experience most things on this planet correlate positively with OBLA.
Could you expand on this? How would you use this test? Do you mean as a monitoring tool?
And if this correlates -presumably you mean the 4mmol.l-1- why not using another fixed Bla value? Or any other method on this curve for that matter… Does OBLA specifically tell you anything about their performance, or the exponential shape of the whole curve itself gives you clues anyway?
And about VO2max, do you mean the actual value achieved (ml.kg-1.min-1), or would you be more concerned with the velocity that an X VO2max value is achieved at? If you’d like to associate it with IAE, that is.
A bit off topic for this forum, but…
Thanks!
Mel Siff refers to this as speed-strength endurance in “Supertraining.” It was a great idea though.
I really dont like blood lactate curve, and neither lactate treshold deteremination according to 4mmol/l, but I think that Conconi test (progresive speed increment for 200m) to see the shape of VO2 and speed is very good for determing OBLA. I just supposed that OBLA (Onset of blood lactate accumulation) level (in speed of running and VO2) corelates with IAE (interval acceleration endurance) but is this truee I dont know!
Lets define the IAE test more precisely… here is an idea:
soccer player run 30m for 15 reps with rest interval about 15 sec (see NASE40 from Dintiman “famous” book) so IAE would be
IAE = runtime15 / runtime1
this would be some kind of an index. We should try to find corelation of this test with VO2 and speed at OBLA. This could be fine experimenta work if aint done yet…
Bla curve might be ok for monitoring progress; whether it can be plotted frequently enough for an athlete/coach (i.e., testing), that’s a different issue. In any case, however, find a Bla definition and a plotting method that it’s preferred by you for whatever reason (e.g., practicality, “closer” to the event and/or even position of the player, etc) and stick with it, otherwise you’ll be “lost”.
I can’t see any other shape of VO2 and speed apart from linear, what exaclty do you mean? Except towards the end, of course (i.e., plateau), but then again not in everyone and it’ll be well above a lactate threshold, however defined.
I haven’t looked at it specifically, as soccer isn’t my “field”, but I wouldn’t be surprised if there was a high correlation there with a better aerobic state being a supportive mechanism for your IAE ® This would be nice to demonstrate!
I don’t get the definition, sorry, I am stuck at the moment! :o
There should some research correlating these parameters vs. soccer performance in general; whether this specific test has been used or not, I don’t know; if not, here’s a gap in literature, provided that the test you are describing is valid!
Enjoy this weekend!
OK! I try to explain a test I proposed in more detail…
You set 2 markers with 30m space on the field. The athlete should run maximaly from one point to another, but not just run, he should stop suddenly. When he do this he rest for about 20sec (or some other time, according to the his age or pozition in game). He should repeat this procedure for about 3-5min (or more, if can) to allow him to enter some kind of a dynamical steady state. This time lag is needed because inetria of cardio-respiratory system to adapt (this is another issue, maybe I will post this problem). On each run you measure his running time.
Supose you have two athletes, A and B. These are their results (on each run, in seconds). The number are symbolic time, because I didnt do this test.
Run # Athlete A Athlete B
3.0 3.3
3.0 3.3
3.1 3.4
3.2 3.4
3.3 3.4
3.4 3.4
3.5 3.4
3.5 3.4
3.6 3.5
3.7 3.5
3.8 3.5
3.9 3.5
4.0 3.5
4.1 3.5
4.2 3.5
*This results are hypotethics, it is just an idea! dont forget that!
You see athele A is quicker than B but he started fatiguing and his running time continue to increase (he didnt enter steady state – he cannot recover during pause). On the other hand athlete B is slower but during the test he enters steady state (he dont accumulate LA because his aerobic capacity is power enough to resintensize ATP/CP neccesary for run).
If we calcutate some variables we could get:
Athlete A Athlete B
Best time 3.0 3.3
Worst time 4.2 3.5
Mean Time 3.51 3.43
during the test
IAE index 0.71 0.94
(best/worst)
Steadsy state n/a after 3min
starts at
So, you see, athlete A is faster but he cannot be fast during the 90min of game. He should be playing a position where he can rest longer (lets say, attack ), but player B is slower but more endurant than athlete A and he could play in the middle… So you can use this test for selection.
You can use this test to evaluate training program and to plan your training. If you see that your athlete is quick but he cannot sustain bursts of activity without droping in performance, he should concentrate on IAE development. If athlete is slow but endurant he should develop quickness and speed, explosivenes etc.
But how to develop IAE (interval acceleration endurance )? He could pay more attention on developing aerobic capacity using continuous running, intervals and activities like this test (ofcourse). But what is the relation between quickness and IAE? I personaly think that there is a trade-off so the coach must think of it. If he pushes aerobic activities that can be dentrimental on quickness and vice versa…
Please forgive me for my stupidity, this is just an idea and have in mind that I was on party last night till 5AM and now is 11AM… :rolleyes:
Duxx,
How do you consider short bursts of maximum effort activity followed by rest aerobic? There may be a cross over of different energy systems, but I see this as anaerobic. During aerobic activity, isn’t lactic acid converted into energy (therefore lactic acid doesn’t build up)? If it does, wouldn’t there be at least a little use of the non-oxidative energy systems? Your thoughts please.
You have two types of energy sources: aerobic and anaerobic. Anaerobic sources can be further divided into ATP/CP (alactat) and glicolitic (lactate), and aerobic can be dived into CHO (carbs) and fat sources (maybe and proteins have their role). Every of these types have 3 different qualities: power, capacity and economy. The ATP/CP are the most powerfull but you have them only for 8-10sec during maximal activity(low capacity). Fats are the lowest power source (energy/sec) but their cpacity is huge (infinite lets say). Anaerobic glicolysis have great power but the nusproduct is lactat acid wich is detrimental for enzymes and CNS causing fatigue, and they are less economic (minimal ATP per mass of CHO). Aerobic glycolisis huge depends on your aerobic ability and vice versa. The main goal of aerobic training is to improve aerobic power (enery/sec from aerobic sources). This depends on central (lunges, heart) and peripheral factors (mitochodria, capilarization etc) but I think that mitochondrias are the most important for aerobic power and that is why there is trade off between endurance and quickness, speed etc.
Lets get back on your question. If you do short burst of maximal running (10-30m) you dominantly use ATP/CP energy system. But after some time you will spend it. Agree? So during rest you should resintensize ATP/CP from other two sources. If you use anaerobic glicolysis you have LA as nusporduct wich is detrimental, and after some time your performance drops. This also happen until you get into stabile state (3-5min) where aerobic sources takes their dominant role (if intensity is below OBLA). So our goal is to improve resisntesizement (creation of ATP, bad english ) from aerobic sources during recovery periods and to avoid LA accumulation. To do that you should have powerful aerobic sources and fast adaptability of heart and lunges to shorten inertial time.
During aerobic activities, after you enter stabile state (where oxigen uptake is the same as oxygen need) you use anaerobic (yes anaerobic) sources because CHO are anaerobicaly transformed into pyruvic acid, and after that they enter Crebs cycle (oxydative) and you convert them into energy so there is no LA accumulation. If the intesity is too intense, oxidative sources cannot cope with anaerobic because their power is less and this is called OBLA (deflection point) when you transform pyruvic acid into LA and they start accumulating. I hope this helps. If I could show you a diagram it would be quite easyer…
Sorry for bad english!
So, in essence, what you are saying is that you would do this to train recovery rather than train the activity? The activity will be anaerobic (with small amounts of aerobic energy as fatigue sets in). But, you feel that the aerobic capacity is more important due to it’s role in ATP resynthesis? Do you think that anaerobic training such as this would indirectly increase aerobic capacity because of this?
Do you think that anaerobic training such as this would indirectly increase aerobic capacity because of this?
Maybe yes, maybe no! We are talking about soccer play, about it specific endurance. I proposed that this kind of training 15x30m would induce aerobic improvement but there is a lot better ways to do that… and the second question is who you are training? Begginers or advanced levels athelets. Maybe you could do this kind of complex training (more than one ability) with begginers but with experienced I dont think it will work! According to periodization theory you should firs develop aerobic base and then engage in this kind of specific activity to “transform” aerobic capacity into this kind of special endurance IAE (I dont like this “transformation” theory process )
So, in essence, what you are saying is that you would do this to train recovery rather than train the activity
This is true only for atheletes who have lower IAE scores. Dont forget that soccer player need to be quick, but quick for 2x45min…
I still have a hard time thinking that 15x30m would be aerobic at moderate to high intensities. The activity is anaerobic and any increases in aerobic capacity are merely byproducts. Conjugate sequencing (or complex training) is not optimal for elite athletes, I agree, but this type of training is focused on anaerobic capacity.
Again, true, but how long are the rest periods between each sprint? They are not sprinting for your 30m, resting for 15 sec., and repeating for 45 minutes straight. Chelsea soccer club in England studied the average activity of their soccer players in a game the following is a breakdown of the amount of each activity in the game:
Average during 90 min. game
-1200 changes of direcion (on average every 4 seconds)
From this information, and the fact that most soccer players have about 7-8 weeks for an off-season, there is no need for aerobic training. In these cases, aerobic training even predisposes these athletes to injury.
“No need for aerobic training” and “predisposition to injuries”. I certainly need clarification on this, if you wouldn’t mind; what exactly do you mean?
Mladen, I can see where you are getting into (I mean the aerobic contribution and how supportive this can be in your test), but from the test you described -let’s say that you have such a scenario in reality, too- who would you choose from the two players? How important a “dynamic steady state” would be in your selection especially if the individual is slower on average?
Thanks!
PS Pakewi, any comments on the posts above, if you may?
You are tottaly right about this one. Certainly athletes who do 15x30 will get more, and more fatigued until LA dont flood their eyes (anaerobic training), and never come into steady state. But (there is always but) the higher the aerobic capacity, the less is the speed of LA accumulation, agree? So soccer players should be aerobicaly prepared, but how much is enough? Doing 15x30m with 15sec rest certainly will not prepare you aerobicaly, I agree, and I didnt propose this as a training but as a test (which is incorect too, according to your data)
So I just proposed one test, wich in fact is not specific to soccer game situations, the game itself is the best test. But I would ask you to propose one or more tests to asses and evaluate qualityes (what qualities are important for soccer?).
Maybe we could create some kind of a poligon on the field wich include all the types of movement in soccer with the combinations of intesities and its volumes to detremine overall soccer preparednes wich contain speed, agility, quickness and special soccer endurance? Today testing is modern
Lets say you are and conditioning coach and you have to evaluate preparednes of your players, and to see the efects of your trianing programm. What would you do? What would you do
I completely agree with Nikoluski about aerobic training and soccer. Firebird, since you have data fron FC Cheslsea would you care to post their relative VO2 max scores or maybe their anaerobic threshold values. They would certainly be pretty high with almost all the players.
The only issue here would be weather there is a need for a lot of lactate tolerance in soccer. IMHO the players that really to go into the lactate zone would be guys like Edgar Davids or Patric Viera that cover a lot of ground sprinting at 80-100%. I doubt that real strikers ever go into that zone they are almost always pure sprinters (Sevcenko comes into mind)
[QUOTE=Nikoluski]“No need for aerobic training” and “predisposition to injuries”. I certainly need clarification on this, if you wouldn’t mind; what exactly do you mean?QUOTE]
Soccer is a game that requires short bursts of max or near max activity spread throughout the 90 minutes. They are not performing aerobic work as you can see from the information in my previous post. Since they require explosive strength, aerobic training would be counterproductive near the season. Since many soccer teams only have about 7-8 weeks of off-season, there is no time for GPP (coincidentaly a great time to perform aerobic training). Cyclic low to moderate intensity activities such as aerobic training inhibit explosive abilities. Non-specific cyclical activities often lead to overuse injuries. Also, if the RFD abilities of the muscle have decreased, when the athlete tries to perform a strong explosive action, antagonist muscles (such as the hamstrings) cannot handle the increased stress and often tear.
The strength coach that I got the Chelsea information from was asked to train a soccer team in England. He agreed on the condition that all strength and conditioning matters where left to him. The coach was one that loved to make his athletes do distance training, and they had injury problems the previoous season. The S&C coach used absolutely no aerobic training. Through the first 2-3 months into the season there wasn’t a single player that missed playing time due to injury. After the first loss of the season, the coach punished the team with a distance run. The S&C coach refused to return to continue training the team because of this, so the team went back to aerobic training under the head coach. Within the next 3 weeks, there where numerous injuries that prevented players from playing.
Soccer is just not an aerobic sport. Would a 100m sprinter ever do 5 miles straight for an in-season workout?
You are absolutely correct, There will not be a lot of lactate buildup. But, this is not because there is a lot of aerobic activity, but rather because (as Duxx pointed out) the prdominant energy system is the ATP-CP system. Lactate is not produced at this level of activity. Measure the VO2 max and lactate threshold for any elite/world class athlete and it will most likely be high.
Soccer is just not an aerobic sport
Here is some information from Bompa “periodisation book” about energy sources for football
ATP/CP 60-80%
LA 20%
O2 0-10%
I dont know how he get this results (and this result is strongly dependent on player position) but after he said that aerobic capacity is very important for recovery in soccer.
FireBird, if soccer is not aerobic sport (certainly not like distance running) from wich sources would you pay “oxigen debt”? From KI (or CHI)? 
Since many soccer teams only have about 7-8 weeks of off-season, there is no time for GPP (coincidentaly a great time to perform aerobic training).
SO, would you do all the time SPP (special physical preparedness)! Want the players get bored, and maybe injured? What about transition period? I think in that period they should forget about ball and field and engage in totaly diferent activities (not universaly true, see Supertraining), and maybe in this period they can develop aerobic endurance? Opinion…