Why “deaden your legs” by training on a track when you can train on grass. Charlie uses the term with tempo running… why not for speed work too?
This is something I’ve been giving a lot of thought to. While I’m not positive, but I believe wearing some spongy like shoes would definitely have some of the benefits we are talking about you need to make sure you are not wearing shoes with a significant heel lift (which are commonly shoes that have a lot of cushioning). You end up throwing the whole recruitment/shock absorption of the kinetic chain off and will make your feet weak.
Other thing I’ve been thinking about is walking with softer shoes/sandals on and the possible benefits of stiffness there.
We are talking about a significant amount of the speed work on grass here.
I think you’re right about that. Also the slip factor is avoided with spikes on grass vs flats on the track.
I think there can be a danger in viewing things in isolation. While doing speed on grass may stiffen tendons, what are the associated costs? Remember you’re adapting to a particular stimulus, so training on the track is going to cause an adaptation to the requirements of training on the track.
I think training on the grass, weights - and variations of weights - etc should be used as tools to elicit a desired response, rather than be the sole focus of training themselves.
I wonder if this phenomenon would carry over to the jump events? Even people trying to gain vertical…
It would also save a lot of the wear and tear injuries jumpers suffer…
The associated cost is the specific Speed and Speed End rates you must travel and the period necessary for specific adaptation.
The limitation on ultimate speed you can reach on a grass surface favors pick-up drills on the one hand and longer SE on the other (limited accel distance and then maintain).
The trick is to balance the time on the track with the carryover period from the grass training before tendon stiffness is diminished, favoring shorter, more frequent training phases.
Based on MVPs training film posted here earlier, the hills appeared to be a compromise between the grass surface and the track (possibly packed gravel?). If so, this might extend the period where grass training is optimal (?)
When we did it, we went to the grass in the early SPP but after some track exposure in Toronto for two week periods before returning to the harder surfaces.
This worked out very well for us but really by circumstance rather than design. We got free training camps where the only option was grass and we took it. Now, it appears, we were on to something back then.
This is something I’ve been giving a lot of thought to. While I’m not positive, but I believe wearing some spongy like shoes would definitely have some of the benefits we are talking about you need to make sure you are not wearing shoes with a significant heel lift (which are commonly shoes that have a lot of cushioning). You end up throwing the whole recruitment/shock absorption of the kinetic chain off and will make your feet weak.
Other thing I’ve been thinking about is walking with softer shoes/sandals on and the possible benefits of stiffness there.
I’m sure I read somewhere that Michael Johnson wore flats instead of spikes during his training periods on the track. I’ve also seen a picture of Carl Lewis training with Mike Marsh and the SMTC guys in flats as well.
Would it be of any benefit for sprinters to wear cross-country spikes? They have enough ‘sponge’ for absorption and the spikes would provide grip if the track was wet.
Thoughts
If I add grass to my running program and it is done right how much can I improve form it? Is this technique worth .2 for a sprinter that goes 10.5 or is it only for sub ten guys?
I don’t think cross country spikes on a track is going to give you any effect close to running on grass. It’s not much different than using regular spikes on a track. I know as I wear XC spikes all the time (they are my ‘running flats’ used for nearly everything).
Ok
So flats it is then!
Exactly. It’s not that you should only run on grass. It’s just that a compliant surface allows for a little more emphasis on certain parts of sprinting, just like different sprint drills(20 meter accels versus special end) emphasise different parts of a race.
I have posted something on this topic before. I was thinking of training with a trainer with a negative heel rise (the heel is lower than the forefoot) But I was not sure if this would cause achillies irratation.
Here is a link to the shoe. Let me know what you all think.
Does this shoe have a negative heel? It’s hard to tell from that page.
I really like shoes with a negative heel rise (like Brooks Mach8) but they can indeed cause tendon irritation for some people in which case they are not worth it.
Agreed. Flats don’t compare well here.
Well, this is the premise of “Jump Soles” and as you mentioned the achilles is a prime factor here. Also, just like we weren’t meant to walk with elevated heels we weren’t meant to walk with elevated fore foots either. Best bet (if we’re talking about stiffness) in my opinion is a perfectly flat shoe with cushioning. We are meant to walk barefoot on grass, since many of us can’t do this during the day walking with a flat cushiony shoe is like wearing portable grass, but you aren’t altering your gait as much as an elevated shoe, whether it be heel or fore foot.
This can definitely be hard to find. Flattest shoe I’ve been able to find that is more of a cross trainer/wear it during the day is the adidas samba indoor soccer shoe (for anyone looking, indoor soccer shoes in general happen to be much more flat in comparison to other shoes, just fyi). Perhaps putting an insole can help here. Although, insoles typically have heel lifts too haha damned if you do damned if you don’t type of situation.
I agree that’s why I stayed away from these. I find the skateboard shoes are the flattest and stiffest shoes on the planet 
This is perhaps slightly changing the topic, but still very much relevant.
Here in the UK, I don’t think we have quality of grass to sprint on (unless you can find a cricket pitch or something, but you need to be careful doing that!).
Once the winter starts, which you could argue it has already, I am not even convinced it is of the quality to do tempo on! I was doing a tempo session yesterday and it was rather ‘sludgy’ and the top surface was fairly slippy. I was doing it in cross country spikes but I think I would have really struggled if I was in flats.
Additionally the surfaces I can think of around here aren’t particularly even.
I am suspiscious that this may have a negative impact on mechanics as it is harder to maintain hip height and posture etc. Thoughts?
When the grass does become usable it’s usually spring summer. Would this phenomenon work in reverse - i.e. winter on the track then move to grass pre-season… would the muscles and tendons still compensate for the softer surface durig this short time?
According to some of the studies posted in the beginning of this thread, the body begins compensating almost the instant you step on to a more/less compliant surface. So, what I’m wondering is, is there really any steady adaptation gained from sprinting on grass that isn’t gone just about the instant you step onto the track?
Perhaps grass best use is it is more natural and less abusing on the legs?
OR, and this is something I’ve been throwing around in my head. What about doing all of one’s warming up on the grass (body has compensated) and then doing the maximal sprints on the track? (Perhaps before body can acclimate due to such a quick change of pace?).
Afterall, majority of tracks I know/use have a grass infield right next to lane 1.