Would the angle of one’s shoulder and a lack of much momentum play more of a role in Bench pressing injuries in comparison to the snatch? Or would it be the presence of more momentum in a snatch that could lead to possible injury? The wauestion may seem stupid but I feel that the less momentum could lead to a more serious injury, some insight would be great.
JMan,
Speaking mostly from personal experience, i have literally snatched, jerked, cleaned, pressed, and benched while at the same time played football and threw the shot and javeling for years. I have never once had a shoulder problem or in fact seen a shoulder injury from combining these things together. Siff often talked about using the overhead lifts to build flexability-strength in the outer ranger of motion. This is detailed in supertraining as well as the hundreds of posts he so gratiously left us to learn from.
Read Siff’s facts and fallacies of fitness, he talks about this very topic. Here is an exerpt from his old forums:
[COLOR=White][COLOR=Green] I have felt that Snatches/variations and overhead
squats have been some of the most useful exercises for improving shoulder
mobility (assuming that was desired) and I believe stability. I once blindly
accepted that those were “bad” exercises for an overhead athlete or athlete
with previous shoulder pathology.
In the past several years this has been a key approach in rehabbing and
training overhead and contact sport athletes and has been supported by
several of the physicians I worked with.
For many years I have been advocating the use of snatch-based exercises
and overhead squats (and PNF type patterns) for training and rehabilitating
the shoulder joint instead of prescribing those never-ending standard drills
for rotator cuff training and rehabilitation. Certainly those traditional
“traffic directing” or “Mac-flashing” flapping around and rotation of the arm
may play a role during early stages of acute pathology, but the prolonged
use of such isolated exercises is not the most efficient way of conditioning
the healthy or injured shoulder, or any other joints, for that matter (more
details on this appear in previous messages and in Siff MC “Facts & Fallaci
es of Fitness” 2000).
Dr Mel C Siff
Denver, USA[/COLOR]
Yeah, if you go below 90 degrees your shoulders are vulnerable. If you stay above 90 degrees your chances of injury are much less.
Frit, your opinion is definitely respected on my behalf.
I must say, however, that the vast majority of lifters, especially the lifters who I have seen, who perform OL variations exhibit poor, at best, technique.
There simply are not enough highly qualified OL coaches in the US.
In light of this fact, the cost:benefit results in a negative, in my opinion.
I hold Siff in the highest regard, however, I must disagree with his use of snatches and other over head lifts as tools for strengthening and rehabing the shoulders in contact sport athletes.
I do concede, however, that the positive results that Siff observed may very well be related to his ability to expertly instruct the technique.
I acknowledge that there are no bad exercises, only bad applications.
I maintain my view, however, that contact sport athletes, among others, would be wise to refrain from overhead lifts, especially in season.
I too speak from experience, both personal ( as a lifter) and that which I have practically observed. I have talked to, referenced, and consulted with far too many athletes and strength coaches alike, who all agree that overhead lifts, especially snatches, have little to no place in the training program of contact sport athletes.
I am aware that this a prime subject for debate, especially between proponents of, and those who discriminate against, the NSCA.
Again, the bottom line for me is the outcome of a cost:benefit. Regarding overhead lifts and contact sport athletes, among others, the outcome is negative.
I feel confident in presuming that your positive and injury free experience and observations place you in a minority and are more of an exception, than a standard from which to make determinations.
Maybe we will have to agree to disagree.
James
Your statement is erroneous.
By your logic, should we then advise contact sport athletes to refrain from absorbing or initiating a striking movement from a significantly extended/transversely extended shoulder position?
Lifters and athletes do not exist in a vacuum. As soon as one leaves the weight room there are many possibilities for the shoulder to be extended/transversely extended past the point to which you limit it during bench pressing, and if the force to which it is subjected to is significant enough, you can bet on incurring an injury.
Practice what you play.
The only individuals who should refrain from full range bench pressing are those who are experiencing or recovering from an injury or condition which prohibits full range of motion.
i never hurt my shoulder benching, but it was a long time ago throwing a football too often and too hard, and snatching/military pressing iritated it, but not benching. Now doing things to strengthen deaccelerators and things that seem to focus on the shoulder firing hard to stabilize(frog stands) are really helping. I also know that coach x is a fan of ring/chain push ups and again these are in the stabilization department as well. So my question would be(if one were to get strong enough) could handstand presses with the chains be done?
Jman,
I think you hit the nail on the head!!! It comes down to good coaching and there is not enough of it in the U.S. Its funny looking through some of those russian weightlifting texts, they state that novice russian lifters would work on technique for the majority of training for up to a year. But in the US we expect to teach an athlete in one or two sessions. I feel (even for myself) that technique(no matter what sport) is always a work in progress no matter how skilled you become at something. I fancy myself as a pretty good OLer technique wise, (becuase i had good coaching) but I always have to attack it every week in both the full lifts as well as the many special assistance exercises to make sure I keep it. The funny thing is that I have had a harder time learning to box squat(westside style) than i did learning how to full squat snatch. Just goes to show that powerlifting is very high skilled sport too.
Jman, keep those posts coming! I love reading them and its always a learning experience talking to other coaches!!!
Frit, yes we are in agreement on the technique front. Every young athlete, lifter, and strength coach should have to spend at least a year interning and lifting in mother Russia at the onset of their careers. It is a goal of mine to make it over there one of these years.
Interesting, though, that the full squat snatch came easier to you than the WSB style box squat technique. The following is not directed at you, I just want to state it for your consideration:
The only individuals who I have found to have a difficult time learning the box squat technique were those who come from an OL background and have no experience performing heavy lifts which hammer the posterior chain (heavy GM’s, heavy DL variations, low bar wide stance power squats, etc…). I find the difficulty in learning to box squat to be synonymous with lifters who’s only experience squatting is with a high bar position and who possess a relatively weak posterior chain.
I even witnessed this tragedy, regarding full squatting, when I took the Club Coach course by USAW. During the lunch break there were some young lifters from the high school performing their routines. When it came time for their back squats (high bar), almost every single lifter exhibited the following deviations in form:
knees caving in (weak abductors/hips)
excessive rounding of the lower back/dumping forward (weak low back/glutes)
The only lifter who exhibited elite level form was a visiting junior national champ who had competed in powerlifting for six years (600lb DL at 181) before converting to OL.
As the head strength coach for a 1AA V HS football program I have witnessed the same poor squatting technique from many of the players. Guess what program they were performing prior to my arrival…the downloadable Husker Power program which, as you know, is heavily rooted in OL variations and almost completely lacking in lifts which hammer the posterior chain.
Well, as I am sure you now are guessing, I terminated the utilization of the previous program on my first day, along with all overhead lifts during the in season, and instituted an in season protocol heavily rooted in WSB methodology. Their squatting form has never looked so good…LOL and more importantly their strengths, as they are expressed specifically on the field, improve with every week of training. 4 and O baby.LOL
Great discussion.
Yes I hope to some day make a little visit to russia too, until then i have my ironmind video’s.
Truthfully the athletes i train that do the OL’s are ones who I will be training for a long time. Not these athletes who’ parents call me and expect to make his/her son or daughter superman in three weeks.
I have few athletes that i have seen for a few years now and we constantly work on different technique’s using many of the special assistance exercises during the warm up portion of the workout. Usually with a wooden dowel or 15lb training bar(its funny to see such a light weight really get sweat going for these guys). Even then i only have one college football player who puts considerable weight on the bar.
On a side note as far as me personally learning the box squat. You were right on, i had a difficulty widening my stance to squat down on to the box, from doing squats for years with a fairly narrow stance. The funny thing is that when i squat clean, squat snatch i can get my rear down to about 3-4 inches of the ground and I am over 6ft tall, but once i widened that stance, it felt like my hips were bieng ripped apart.
Another point for me was the abrupt stop onto the box rather than that huge stretch reflex that usually shoots me out of the hole in deep catch position in the clean or snatch. I just wasnt used to that feeling, so the whole movement felt odd. The more I did it though, the better i got at it but it took a while.
Finally I have had my best throws performance using a combination of the westide and OL’s. I had actually taken a year off from throwing altogther. Then came back the following year. For six months prior to the season, i trained twice a week using the westside/OL combination of training. Now here is the kicker, i live in the northeast, so its cold and snowy all winter, i had not touched a javelin until the first meet of the season. On my first throw of the season I PR’d by about 15 feet. The next two throws went even further but i fouled both times. At that moment i realized the importance of strength, and realized that was what i wanted to do when i was done competing.
Frit, good stuff. I am looking forward to working with the throwers at the highschool.
Regarding the Iron Mind videos, I have only seen brief segments of a couple of the world championship tapes (I forget which ones), they are great.
Do you recommend certain videos in particular?
I have some from 96 olympics and training hall prior to the 96 games. Its amazing, seeing Dimas in training. He walks in and goofs around with everyone, very relaxed and happy. Does a few stretches and then whamo, he starts doing snatches that i swear if you blink you will miss the lift.
The training facility is an old looking gararge, nothing close to the top d1 college football weight rooms we see these days. The room is full of nothing but old tattered platforms, squat stands and bumber plates and lots of chalk. Its simple an awsome atmosphere to train in.
Let me rephrase my statement. What I meant to say was that you put yourself at great risk for injury if you use MAXIMAL LOADS and go down past 90 degrees when benching. Lighter weights can and should be used to execute full bench presses as they help strengthen muscles and ligaments that don’t get used in the 90 degree presses.
If you ask anybody who’s had a shoulder injury from bench pressing you will find that they were using near maximal loads and that they injured it at the bottom of the lift.
Even after rephrasing, you still indicate that you are mislead in your thinking.
Again, by your logic, the same may be said about full squats, deep knee bends, overhead presses, weighted chin ups, or any other lift performed through its entire range of motion with maximal loads.
The people who you refer to, who sustain shoulder injuries during the bottom portion of the yielding phase of the bench press, are a testament to one singular fact; WEAKNESS DURING HEAVILY LOADED SHOULDER EXTENSION/TRANSVERSE EXTENSION IN A SUPINE POSITION.
THE SOLUTION…
STRENGTHEN THAT AREA OF WEAKNESS
There is NOTHING dangerous about full range benchpressing so long as the trainee possess a balanced level of physical preparedness which will render them PREPARED to perform heavily loaded full range lifts.
The problem, as you have illustrated, is that far too many athletes (especially in the US) exhibit poor physical preparedness traits (specifically max strength,structural balance, intramuscular coordination, and technical exercise proficiency). Thus, it is no wonder why certain lifts appear to present more of a hazard than others. UNDERTRAINED ATHLETES
Your assertion ,regarding limiting the range of motion of any particular lift due to the increased stress on connective tissue, is a perfect illustration of the BANDAID mentality in the US. Instead of correcting what is F’D up at the source, many people would rather opt for an elementary quick fix, which in the long run, only serves to create avenues for further injury.
Blinky, some re-education is in order for you brother.
There are many different body types with different lengths of levers. Somebody with short arms and a big barrel chest may not even have to go down to 90 degrees until the bar hits his chest. This will be the end of the motion and the lifter will be forced to lift up.
For somebody with long arms and a small chest, they will have to go down way past 90 degrees until the bar even touches their chest and then be forced to lift up again. This puts their shoulder in a more vulnerable position compared to the first lifter and why would you want to risk injury from this?
Also, if full range bench presses are necessary and of little risk, then why doesn’t everybody use their max on dumbells and go down as far as they possibly can and put their shoulder in the most awkward position of all and then press up? They don’t do that because it makes no sense and you can achieve the same benefits from using maximal loads on a 90 degree bench press as you can with a full range bench press with alot smaller injury risk.
This is nothing more than stating the obvious, and neither here nor there in value.
Again, nothing more than a weakness which must be compensated for, by strengthening it. What do you say to all the long armed bench pressers who put up over 600lbs?
Now, you are talking about a different exercise and losing site of the debate… One thing at a time my friend.
A full range barbell bench press is not to be confused, nor compared to a dumbbell bench press. If you’ll notice, I did not reference DB lifts in any of my posts.
I agree that one must monitor the range of motion on unilateral lifts.
Stay the course Blinky, we are talking about bench pressing.
This statement has just won itself a place amongst the ranks of the mothers off all perversions of strength training information.
Blinky, you CANNOT achieve the same benefits from using maximal loads on a ninety degree bench press as you can by performing a full range bench press.
Force:Posture
The force generated/acted upon/absorbed etc., is specific and dependent upon many different variables, one of which is joint angles.
A partial range bench press requires reversing the bar at a specific joint angle, accordingly, the force absorbed by the body and generated against the bar is specific to that joint angle
A full range bench press requires reversing the bar at a specific joint angle, accordingly, the force generated absorbed by the body and generated against the bar is specific to that joint angle.
Two entirely different lifts which yield entirey different rewards. Much the same as a parallel squat and a full squat. The difference, however, is that there is NO arguement for employing a less than full range bench press as a sole means of bench pressing, unless, as I said, there is a specific injury or condition which prohibits exercising the shoulder through significant degrees of extension under high load.
A less than full range bench press is fine as an addition to a rotation of special exercises which serve to increase the classical lift itself. However, it must not be viewed as a sole replacement to bench pressing for a healthy lifter.
You fail to understand that the rotator cuff and the knee are completely different joints with very different functions.
Blinky, what color is the sky on the planet in which you live.
Where, in any of our exchanges, did you get the idea that I was refering to the rotator cuff and the knee joint as being one in the same.
Blinky, if you review any of the posts which I have made on this site, or review my webpage, you would quickly understand that biomechanics and anatomy are NOT subjects which are foreign to me. This, however, is beside the point.
The point, in fact, is that you are attempting to debate a topic, in which the skill set that you have at your disposal is comprised of complete MISINFORMATION, therefore, it is no suprise that you are so confident in what you think is correct.
What we need here is for someone else to contribute to our debate, therebye, injecting the objectivity and truth which you are intent on NOT accepting from me.
Charlie, David W, Football Coach, Silver Back, Frit, anyone, please help Blinky to understand that the partial range bench press is not a suitable replacement for, nor can you recruit the same number of MU’s or compare force output (given like loads are used), to the full range bench press.
Additionally, please help him to understand that the full range bench press posses no more risk than a partial range bench press, so long as there is no pre-existing pathology about the shoulder/pec-delt tie in and that the athlete possesses the physical preparedness/intramuscular coordination to lift maximal loads throughout the entire range of motion.
Furthermore, to rely soley on the partial range bench press will infact increase the likelyhood of future injury/pathology, especially if performed by an athlete.
Lastly, please help Blinky to understand that you CANNOT experience the same training effect by lifting maximal loads in the partial range bench press, as compared to lifting maximal loads in the full range bench press.
Two different lifts in which the barbell is reversed at two different joint angles,and in NO WAY can the partial range bench press be compared to or supercede the effectiveness or training effect of the full range bench press.
Each one as part of a rotation of special exercises is good to go. However, to replace the full range bench press with a partial range bench press, and call the partial range press just as effective, is COMPLETELY ABSURD.
Blinky, it appears as if any further discussion, between the two of us, is an exercise in futility.
If you don’t want to hear it from me you are going to have to be content to hear it from another board member.
–>
Obviously you aren’t going to change your view, so why don’t you continue to use maximum loads while doing full range presses and I’ll see you in the Injury Forum in a few months.
question blinky, how come charlie never spoke of his athletes getting injured from the full range bench press? as well ive seen over 100 kids, many unprepared, do full range bench press several days a week, no pain, as have i. Its ok to be wrong, its how we all learn.