I thought I read, somewhere, Charlie said racing for kids is enough speed endurance work.
Will try to find, but seems fair enough, as they need higher GPP work and what we would deem speed work for adults would be speed endurance for youths.
Thanks DMA that would be useful if you can find Charlie’s comments on the subject.
Not exactly what I was looking for but try this thread
http://www.charliefrancis.com/community/showthread.php?t=21560&highlight=endurance+kids
I hope that link works, but the thread is called Speed endurance the key to all 11/12second sprinters?
Thanks DMA, the thread started off very appropriate to my current needs but unfortunately turned into yet another Bolt debate, ah well the first 3 pages were interesting.
Question, providing I give them 1 session a week of acceleration/speed and 1 session of explosive med ball, would 1 session of intensive tempo e.g. 85-90% with appropriate recoveries (as opposed to 95-98% SE1 or SE) detract from their long term development ?
Hi TC, I have used in the past 7x100m round the track with 50m walk back recovery, so I could use that again for them as their “long session” to begin with. Then after a few weeks of that try something along the lines of what KK was advocating i.e. using 150m + down the clock from 60m. They are at the moment doing 3 sessions of tempo on grass with bodyweight exercises immediately afterwards. The other sessions will be as stated, e.g. Tuesday 2x4x15m followed by multi jumps circuits. Sunday med ball for power + general conditioning. The longer track work done on Thursdays.
Question for both of you - what intensities would you be expecting the respective sessions you suggested to be ran at.
I imagine the rests between the short reps would be a walk back to the next start line - is that about right. ?
PhilG
I could say that my record with younger athletes (over 10 years) is pretty good. We never had any serious injuries other than growth related ones.
I have been using the CF model i.e. MON speed TUE Tempo WED break, THU SE FRI break SAT speed SUN off.
On WED and FRI the kids do “home sessions” (Sit ups, push ups)
MON - speed - breaks 3, 5, or 7min, pre-season or in season (depending on intensity) 7, 9, 15min.
TUE - tempo 2-3.5min. @70%
THU SE - 3, 5, 7 min.
When we do SE I make sure they are rested before running again. Only on tempo days they walk back and run again.
But, as KK1 said it depends on an individual. They need to be assessed and you need to know how they react to shorter-longer breaks.
I know what CF said regarding young athletes (under 16) but I never went down that path. I treated them as other (older) athletes. However the intensity and volume was different and more appropriate for younger athletes.
Kids recover better (pre-puberty kids) than adults but can not peak over a longer period of time. With an appropriate foundation and strong core area (in particular) they cope well even with longer distances.
Cheers.
as they need higher GPP work and what we would deem speed work for adults would be speed endurance for youths.
DMA
They do not need higher GPP work. It’s a myth. Speaking in general terms, kids get fitter sooner than adults. The younger they are the less recovery they need. Of course it needs to be measured and appropriately applied to an individual as we are all different.
I remember one girl I coached some years ago. She was 13 years old. Into our 2nd week of GPP some “bodybuilder” sprinters were showing off at the local gym. They tried to do what they call “ab wheel roll out” from standing position to fully extended horizontal position and roll back to a standing position with a proper bar and wide hand grip. Only one person could have completed this exercise - one rep. So I recommended to do this exercise starting on their knees, roll out and back. I’ve challenged them to do more than 30 reps and that this little girl would do more reps than anyone else. One guy did 10 reps other 2-3 around 20 and another guy did 26. The girl did 54 reps and I had to stop her.
She was into her second week of GPP as I said. We did lots of practice in the past and she was familiar with the exercise. She was sore after that but recovered withing 2-3 days… The guys? They did not come back for 2 weeks!!! That year she won the Nationals and ran a NR in 400m and in 200m.
I guarantee you (pound for pound) pre-puberty kids will outperform adults (free weight exercises) and recover quicker.
I understand what you mean, he’s not pre puberty but the 14 year old in my group managed the same tempo and bodyweight circuit session as the seniors yesteday. The running was a bit slower than the older guys, sensibly as his pbs are slower than theirs but completed the session without problem.
True. Have seen similar things, but have also seen the typical teenager have no GPP but be able the fastest person in the state of none. He did that for 2 seasons and it took us 18 months to get him fit enough to run due to injuries.
Thanks for your input.
How far out in distance and volume did you go ?
How did you check if they were recovered, did you use bpm as mentioned earlier in this thread, I think it was KK who had used that method.
PhilG
In a nutshell;
Group A - under 10s
2-3 training sessions a week
Speed-tempo-jumps
Speed - 30-40-60m
Tempo - 100m
Speed break time - 3, 5 or 7min.
Tempo break time 2-3min
Group B under 11- under 15
3 training sessions a week + comp on SATs
Speed- tempo- SE- comp/speed
Speed - 30-60-80m
Tempo 100/200m ( some 300m and 400m but not many)
SE - 80-150m
Similar break time as Group A
Group C 16-18yo
4-6 training sessions a week
Speed- Tempo- home session- SE-home session- Speed
Speed - 30-60-80m
Tempo 200/300/400 (combination of various distances)
SE - 80-150m
Speed break time - 5, 7, 9 or 15min
Tempo BT - 2 to 3.5min.
SE BT - 5, 7, 9 min.
Bpm and communication with athletes. When you spend a lot of time with some of them you just know when they are rested and ready to go.
Thank you, so high intensity work keep at 150m and below. Would the tempo stay at and below 75% (extensive) or does it go higher on occaisions i.e. intensive tempo, rather than 95%. I’m figuring by your rest times its fairly low intensity. My feelings are to keep it low intensity, but I’m interested in what has worked for you.
Your last comment is so true.
PhilG
What we usually do on tempo days is this;
C. Hart’s approach;
16x200m @ 36sec 2.5min
15x200m @ 35sec. 2.5min
…each week one rep down with one sec down.
7x200m @ 27sec 3min
6x200m @26 sec. 3.5min
5x200m @ 25sec. 3.5min.
Total - 12 weeks (GPP)
Then during the SPP phase;
300 or 400 m
4x400m with 3min at around 62-65sec.
(If a runner’s PB in 400m is say 50 sec. 70% = 65sec. pace)
2x300m @ 70% 3min.
2x200m @70% 3min.
For younger athletes
4x250
2x200
2x150 all at 70%
Then we hit the gym (espec. I would encourage younger kids to participate) where they do up to 1000 crunches and 200 push ups only. In total 3000 crunches per week no matter how young they are. All of my athletes have incredibly strong core/abdominal area.
So in total - up to 30min running (including breaks) and 30min gym work on a tempo day and they are done. Do not worry much about the SE component if they are under 13-14. If they are conditioned well and if speed is in place from my experience I find they cope well and are ready to compete. However if some of them react well to the SE training I would let them do it in a controlled fashion.
Thanks, they are almost 15 and 16, I certainly agree with the circuits. They are doing them after the tempo at the moment and will continue to keep up a good level of conditioning.
Is tempo realy nessassary or is it perhaps better to replace it with a rest day. Charlie mentioned in the VANCOUVER DVD illustrations that beginners cannot generate enough output to overload their CNS so most of their training can be done in the high intensity zone. Your comments please
It depends, previous posts in this thread have stated that its used by some instead of Special Endurance. Its important for beginners to have the general fitness that is developed by (among other things) tempo. As a method of recovery for beginners its obviously not as vital to a beginner as opposed to a top end sprinter, but I still feel its important to get young athletes into the habit of using tempo and other regeneration methods at least some of the time. I use it with all of my group and none of them are currently sub 11.0 runners, both as a means of improving general fitness and for recovery from races during the summer months, always on grass, and that factor alone plays a part in keeping injuries at bay.
Interesting thread. I have looked at this for my own athletes and from what I have observed in other coaches’ athletes and I think the key points from KK and TC are spot on. I think PhilG’s observation on other groups is a good one as we see time and again that the young athletes with alot of energy flogging themselves round the track – getting good performance gains but really not developing themselves technically or putting skills and abilities in place for future development. We therefore don’t see many of these athletes improve post 16/17. I bet that one of the main coaches you see at your track has never had/rarely had anyone compete at a good level post junior years.
Looking at the suggested session from TC the general variety and work capacity can be done by sectioning up the sessions and having warm up and cool down activities which work general strength aspects. Accelerations are so important and the learning of drill and movement patterns at this age will help immensely for future development.
The mention of running As is a good one as the endurance aspect can be done a number of ways and doing an endurance drill I find is a great way of working an endurance aspect very safely. As long as the form on the drill is maintained I think this is fine. In addition to that I have used skipping drills and gone for time periods doing drills on the rope. Again form is important and positioning of foot contact needs to be done correctly.
Through the variety of work there doesn’t have to be anything too specific to special endurance work as the work capacity can be built up by doing a variety of work. We don’t have to build work capacity through running alone I think is what I am trying to say.
One young athlete I worked with this year did a national age group record a year young in their event. Its worrying on the one hand as so many age group record holders don’t carry it through, but on the other they did this of relatively minimal specific work and a good variety of general strength, med ball, accelerations and drills – they did the record in the sprint hurdles. This was also off 1 or 2 days training each week!
Thanks Tinsoldier, good comments. 
You were correct about that type of coach not having any success beyond the under 20 age group, hell most of them don’t even get that far. The speed gets run out of them and they end up being mediocre 400m runners then quit cos they don’t progress.
I can see that some young athletes fail to progress from say 16 years old up to 20 years. However is this because of poor coaching, or is it because their early success was based on relative early physical maturity.
I remember competing in other sports (cricket and rugby) against a local 12 year old prodigy. He was big ! By the age of 16 he was just very good, and we were almost the same size as him.
The classic example for me was always Mark Lewis Francis. As an 18 year old, I heard a commentator say that if was already this good what would he be like as a 25 year old - well he already looked 25 to me.
The opposite case is Usain Bolt, a teenage prodigy built like a beanpole who still had the capcity to fill out from 18-22 years of age.
I suspect the early maturty argument is more relevant to boys than girls.
Any thoughts on this theory ?