Hi guys, its a while since I last posted, really pleased the forum is to continue despite losing Charlie.
I am coaching 2 young guys a 14 year old 24.7 (200m) and a 15 year old 11.5/23.4, they have been with my group since January this year. We are soon to commence their first GPP and SPP1 and I was wanting to know how others (aware of CF’s belief that under 16s should not work at high intensity beyond 150m) ensure that under 16s are sufficiently prepared for the 200m in particular. If I only have them working between 60 and 150m they could get pretty bored. If my older athletes are running 300s, could the two young guys safely do split runs 100/100/100 building to 150/150 ? its still under 150m but a bit more varied than multiple reps of 60s. Your thoughts please.
Depends on the individual. Also depends on how you site the propsoed SE1. Also on the specifics of the set/session.
But if you took the athlete out to, say, 120m or even 150m, you could do a pulse recovery (nothing moves until the pulse is under 130 bpmin.
Then, if the athlete feels up to it, perhaps you could use a descending ladder rather than another 150, which might be too taxing (ie: a split 300m). So you could look at aiming for 150m, 60, 50, 40, 30, 20 and in the descending dashes emphasise the Vertical rather than the Velocity - and eventually you will get both. But in this way, you are instilling a technical element to the training which is good in the long run, while excusing the novice from producing anything seering hot on the back-ups.
Eventually the set could look something like 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 150 - jog remainder of the lap (250m as receover), then a second 150m, then a short recovery time before hitting the 60m, with walkbacks and into the 50m, 40, 30, 20. The shorter acceleration-style reps tend (hopefully) to discourage the athlete from kicking out the lower leg. Then you take that attacking action into the 150s without even thinking about it.
But a session like that - which I have used incorporating a third 150 - might be a few years away. And in the meanwhile, training as you see things, in my opinion. Delete any number of reps as suits. kk
Have you read Bud Winter’s book yet? Just asking b/c he used to advocate “foreleg reach” to his sprinters and I see that from your post above and remembering CF’s feelings about stepping over, what Winters suggested sounds counter productive… Almost like overstriding to get a longer stride. If you’re interested I can send you some excerpts on this topic from “so you want to be a sprinter” and tell me what you think.
nycjay,
I have often wondered about this myself. CF, Tellez, and many others, emphasize stepping over and footstrike very close to bottom dead center, not reaching out. Winter’s ideas are shown and described well in the video at budwinter.com.
His “rocket start” is also very different from what we see in top sprinters these days.
There is a youtube for a movie they are trying to pitch for the Speed City Team. You can see Tommie Smith Lee Evans and John Carlos in a race. I did not notice any overstriding. They say Glen Mills follows alot of winters ideas and we know Usain has near perfect running form…
Just thinking about something CF said a while ago in a seminar video… about when depending on how you lift your thigh you can get more distance on your stride… I wonder if Winter had the same idea but used different words to describe it?
This has me curious because I have a really short stride and after training with a guy who was shorter and weaker than me he was able to blow me away (by like 5m in the 100m) we had the same turn over. he was about 145 and could squat 315 I was 170 and could squat 365… So the power was close too. I did notice that his range of motion was better but he was not much more flexible than me the only difference was that foreleg reach. He did not overstride either…
KK, approx how long between the long rep, say 150m, then the shorter sprints of 60m and under.
I’m interested in trying this work. Up till now I’ve kept it simple, remembering a quote from Charlie that girls responded well to SE1 (sprints of 8-15s duration).
Many thanks KK, I would also like to know about the recovery after each 150m. I imagine the rests between the short reps would be a walk back to the next start line - is that about right. ?
I’ll let you guys off for hijacking, looks like it could be worth a thread on its own.
I find that emphasising the heel up to the butt rather than thinking about knee lift and the lift automatically happens, which allows plenty of time to step over and down.
Hi ‘on the ball’ I have re - read KK’s answer and he suggests going by a pulse rate of 130bpm before progressing to the shorter sprints.
I’m planning on building up to 1 session of speed, 1 session of the type KK mentioned and 1 session of Power Med Ball. Following the 2 running units I will be giving them general medicine ball and bodyweight conditioning, with a few light weights exercises. Does this sound okay to you KK and others.
Sounds like a good plan. You could progress those two days like CF has laid out in the 02 forum review ebook. I think its the 2 HI days and 4 Low intensity days plan. What’s cool about your set up is that during the bad weather or lack of facilities you could go to the track 2x/week and then do the bike tempo on the other days…
I don’t like to place any emphasis on the kick-out. It happens as soon as the knee stops rising: At this point there is a transferal of angular momentum down the leg shaft to the foot which will pop forward whether you like it or not. It does not need to be emphasised. The action is up and down, not out and rake back although it may look like the latter.
Effective stride length has nought to do with how far you stick your leg out in front of the COM. That just lowers the COM and extends the moment of contact, damaging the quality of impulse and return.
Effective stride length real is the distance you move the pelvis forward from toe-off to landing.
Bud Winter may have recommended the kick-out but that’s not what his top guys did when they ran their best at Mexico Olympics in 1968.
And eliminating the kick-out is another reason times have continued to drop in the men’s sprints.
However, there will be an argument for the kick-out as demonstrated by FloJo. Closer examination of her form on video needs to be conducted to see how much the actual kick-out played in her record sprints because at point of contact in her fastest runs footstrike was very close to the COM…so did she even need to do that?
We’ve used a ladder like 60m, 80m, 100m and 120m. We’ve often made the rest say 2 minutes longer than the run so for the 60m it would be 8 minutes until we did the 80m.
By the time we do this we will have run lots of 60m runs so will be well ready to do this.
We’ve found this has still allowed us to run good 200m races. Probably you are still running the 120m very fast but you are still carrying some fatigue from the earleir runs.
Occasionally we will do a 145m run. we do this distance becasue we just run off the 400m hurdle mark but that is as far as we go.
Don’t really do any SE for under 16s and still had good results in the 200m. In fact i’ve had athletes win senior national medals without really doing anything specific for the 200m - only runs out to 120m maybe 2 a session.
When i have tried a speed endurance session with younger athletes i’ve used split runs maybe two sets of 3x50m with a walk back between reps and 6min between sets. Personally, I’d work more on strength training, hurdles, long jump etc with the younger athletes and worry about preparing for the 200m once they hit about 18. If they are talented they’ll still do well at the 200m without specific training.
Thanks TC and others, it all helps. We have used 2-3 x 130m 95-98% (20mins rest) late on in the summer. The older guy managed 3 with very little drop in time. I kept the 14 year old to just 2, he only did this a couple of sessions and a few weeks apart, his technique would start to felter on the 2nd rep.
Its a bit frustrating for the 2 lads, they have improved this season, but also see other sprint groups of same age range doing speed endurance and 200’s and 250’s i.e. special endurance 1 and getting major improvments at 100/200/400. I just keep telling them they won’t keep it up long term and we need to do things gradually, but it ain’t easy.
Question for TC and KK, at what stage of the winter did you commence such sessions and how would you progress the sessions you have quoted.
Also would you advocate 2 high intensity sessions per week rather than 3 ? the power med ball session is quite intense, but obviosly not as high as the track work.
I don’t really start the Speed Endurance during the winter for the young athletes. I just put it in occasionally when i feel they can handle it and need a change.
In terms of the number of high intensity sessions per week. If they are young they are probably only training 2-3 times a week anyway so all the sessions are high intensity - because they can still recover just fine as absolute intensity is fairly low. Charlie goes into this in the Elite Concepts ebook and the Vancouver series videos.
Also my athletes are hurdling, long jumping and sprinting at 12-15 years old and will probably continue this until the hurdles become too high for them (boys at least) and then drop down to long jump and sprint - as the two are compatible until a point where they decide to drop one or the other.
Hi TC, the 2 in question are training 3 times per week. So do you bother with tempo for your younger athletes, or is their training not intensive enough to need it or does the activity they are doing at school etc serve that purpose.
Is the time normally allocated to SP1 just an extension of the varied work shown in the GPP DVD, and do you use short hills for the younger athletes.
Don’t really do tempo as a specific session with them but i might do something like this on one of the days a week with a bigger conditioning focus:
Warm Up
Multi jumps
Accelerations
Tempo 8x100m (20s pace) - could be done as 400m the hard way (e.g. run 100m, walk back 50m, run 100m, walk back 50m etc).
General Strength Circuits
Warm Down
Good question RB, I was wondering as well if you use the running A’s for strength endurance at this age, I would imagine that it would not be a problem - thoughts ?
Just to ask again if you have used hills with this group TC, and if so what distances and volume.
