As I understand it, Zinc is supposed to help raise your body’s level of testosterone, correct?
What are some other “natural” or “normal” ways to ensure sufficient/beneficial testosterone levels in the body? (legally of course).
If you are deficient in zinc, you could be deificient in T. If you normalize zinc, then you could boost it to normal levels.
Some other natural supplements that will boost T production:
Longjack (tongkat ali)
Fenugreek
Tribulus Terrestris
Vitex
Avena sateva
Maca
Please correct me if I am wrong, but there is no proof that these herbs raise natural test levels in healthy young men. They may exert an effect on nitric oxide levels though.
There is proof that some of those herbs boost testosterone.
They aren’t banned! They only ban what works! Nobody tested positive for Avena sateva!
There is proof that some of those herbs boost testosterone
I hope you aren’t talking about the ones done in Malaysia. I would like to see a study done on weight training adults between 18-30. Not sedentary 50 year olds.
None of those supplements work. Whenever you increase testosterone you are going to increase aromatization and therefore estrogen levels. If any of those supplements increased test to any significant degree you’d end up with a host of estrogen related side effects. I don’t know anyone who got gyno from tribulus or avena sativa. :rolleyes:
If anything some of those supplements (like zinc or tribulus) will be effective at returning testosterone to “normal” levels in situations where testosterone is abnormally low, but if your T-levels are in the 300 - 1,000 ng/dL range, taking them is useless.
If you want to naturally raise your testosterone levels, check this out:
http://www.fawnia.com/gfx/portfolio/bikini/full/bikini_033_f.jpg
I don’t know anyone who got gyno from tribulus or avena sativa.
There have been reports of puffy nips from Vitex usage on other message boards. From what I’ve heard you are correct that these products are worthless to someone with normal test ratios. They must do something though because people break out with acne and have increased libido.
Care to speculate how they work, Ironhead?
Why would a guy want to take vitex - an herb used by women to increase progesterone levels? No wonder why they’re complaining of puffy nipples!
As to how these guys are getting acne and an increased libido, early studies on tribulus showed that while LH and testosterone were elevated 72% and 40% respectively, estradiol was also elevated - by 81%! The subjects in this study started out with an average of 600 ng/dL and ended up with about 850 ng/dL of test. This is still well within the “normal” range for men. Estradiol however, went from normal levels of about 76 pg/ml to significantly elevated levels of 137.5 pg/ml. Milanov, S., E. Maleeva, M. Tashkov. Tribestan effect on the concentration of some hormones in the serum of healthy subjects (Company documentation)(1981).
So yes they’ll get a rise in T-levels, albeit within normal range, which probably causes some increase in libido and may cause some acne, but (and this goes for many testosterone boosters) they also experienced a huge rise in estradiol, well above normal levels.
I doubt hat they would be able to maintain the increased libido, and high test levels for very long either. Usually natural t-boosters work by stimulating LH release from the pituitary gland. Unfortunately, LH inhibits the amount of GnRH that is produced - which is responsible for increasing LH in the first place. So you get a negative feedback loop in the Hypothalamic-Pituitary-Testicular Axis.
So basically you have a bunch of natural test boosters that either need to be cycled because they only work for a few days; or need to be taken with an anti-aromatase.
All this trouble for a few measley ng/dl increases in testostorone? If you have healthy levels to begin with, you probably won’t notice much of anything.
Just my thoughts on them - I personally wouldn’t use them.
Zinc though is an essential supplement - but I wouldn’t classify it with some of the herbs mentioned earlier in this thread.
They aren’t banned! They only ban what works! Nobody tested positive for Avena sateva!
No they only ban what is artificial otherwise Wheaties and all sorts of anabolic cocktails would be banned.
So yes they’ll get a rise in T-levels, albeit within normal range, which probably causes some increase in libido and may cause some acne, but (and this goes for many testosterone boosters) they also experienced a huge rise in estradiol, well above normal levels.
I doubt that they would be able to maintain the increased libido, and high test levels for very long either. Usually natural t-boosters work by stimulating LH release from the pituitary gland. Unfortunately, LH inhibits the amount of GnRH that is produced - which is responsible for increasing LH in the first place. So you get a negative feedback loop in the Hypothalamic-Pituitary-Testicular Axis.
So basically you have a bunch of natural test boosters that either need to be cycled because they only work for a few days; or need to be taken with an anti-aromatase.
Re: estrogen increases - that increase in estrogen is pretty standard for that amount of testosterone elevation. Negative feedback just proves that the stuff is working. Yes these products do need to be cycled because they lose their effectiveness pretty quickly. The real problem is the huge variability in potency and effectiveness among products. You pretty much get what you pay for.
No they only ban what is artificial otherwise Wheaties and all sorts of anabolic cocktails would be banned.
they don’t ban squats and sprints…let’s look at the TESTOSTERONE!
You’re taking the supplement to boost testosterone - but what you’re getting is a slightly higher testosterone level - though still within normal ranges, which, let’s face it, is not going to do jack. The price? A lower testosterone to estrogen ratio, and an estrogen level that is well above normal! :eek:
Why do you think that very few (if any) of these supplements have any published research? And if they do - it’s not on normal individuals.
If you have abnormally low test levels from things such as in chronic or acute hypogonadism, a cycle of Mexican supplements, overtraining, age associated declines in testosterone, and extreme and/or prolonged dieting then they may be useful. If you’re healthy and your T-levels are in 500-600 ng/dL range why bother?
You’re taking the supplement to boost testosterone - but what you’re getting is a slightly higher testosterone level - though still within normal ranges, which, let’s face it, is not going to do jack. The price? A lower testosterone to estrogen ratio, and an estrogen level that is well above normal!
The negatives of estrogen are over-rated - That’s assuming the ratio changes which I doubt if it will in the large majority of cases.
If you have abnormally low test levels from things such as in chronic or acute hypogonadism, a cycle of Mexican supplements, overtraining, age associated declines in testosterone, and extreme and/or prolonged dieting then they may be useful. If you’re healthy and your T-levels are in 500-600 ng/dL range why bother?
Keep in mind that a lot of athletes are under chronic physical stress, undereat, overtrain, and an aging athlete has to do all they can to maximize natural hormone product which makes these supplements useful for some people. I also speak mainly from personal experience here. I’ve used all of the above except for avena sateva and all have worked to some extent without any negative side effects. One combination took me from mid-normal to high normal within 2 weeks without anything negative. The effect does vary depending on the quality of the product and unfortunately not everybody responds the same.
What are you basing that on? Anytime your ratio of estrogens to androgens changes there are a host of issues that come into play. From benign prostatic hypertrophy to water retention and fat storage to lowered SHBG synthesis to higher prolactin levels - the list goes on.
Sure normal levels are fine and important for many growth factors, but you can’t honestly think that nearly doubling your estrogen level (76 pg/ml to 137.5 pg/ml) is acceptable? From a natural supplement no less! Why not just skip the whole process and just start eating soy every day?
If you’re really looking for a ‘natural’ boost in testosterone, use a supplement that inhibits the aromatase enzyme. Playing with your LH levels is a waste of time.
What are you basing that on?
If you want examples in the real world look at what supplements are at the core of bodybuilding stacks and what qualities they have.
If you want something more hardcore go to avantlabs.com and search on estrogen and lipolysis, estrogen and growth hormone etc.
The rise in estrogen occurs with increased testosterone. Those are the same elevations I’ve seen from 4-AD blood tests but nobody ever points the finger at that supplement.
Supplements that inhibit aromatase would be nice but they are banned or at least will be very soon.
Good stuff on the avantlabs site - though all the positives of estrogen (increasing androgen receptor density, increasing growth hormone and IGF-1 levels, and enhancing glucose utilization by the muscle) seem to be referring to “the presence” of estrogen. I couldn’t find anything that talked about abnormally high levels being beneficial. (I didn’t read everything on the site obviously)
I don’t want to go off on a tangent w/regards to 4-AD and other supps that are on the banned list, so I’ll just leave it. That supplement warrants a whole different discussion. :rolleyes:
If you decide to use trib, longjack or maca, etc., is it a good idea to use an estrogen blocker with it?
To eliminate the rise in estrogen couldn’t you use chrysin or a product like M by Biotest. Kelly makes a good point that athletes over 30 and overtrained athletes could benefit–and improve their test to cortisol ratio.