Question on KitKat 2 X 200 paces.

I understand that the second 200 in the set is supposed to be the goal come-home time for second half of goal 400. So if the runner’s goal is to run the 400 in 50 with splits of 24/26, the come-home goal time is 26. But what is the pace for the first 200 in KitKat’s workout? 24? 26? Thanks.

Are you talking about the 2 x (200m + 200m) workout, or the 6 x 200m off 2mins workout?

2 x (2 x 200)

i think i would try it on 90% of pb in 200

Hi Vedette,

Actually, we hardly used the 24-26 kind of set. It was more a theoretical model for a 50sec 400.

What we mostly worked on was using that set to build - or prove - strength.

If the come-home pace of the race-model 400 was 26sec, we would open the 200+200 with a 26sec 200 and then try to negative-split the backup rep.

So when your 50sec-standard 400m athlete could go 26+25 then you knew your specific strength was in decent shape.

The speed (flying 20m, and time to 80m) and special-speed-endurance (1 run out to 300m or a bit further) might still need work, but at least you knew that the basis of a decent last 150 was in place.

Of course that didn’t necessarily mean you could bolt the homestraight 100 off a really fast first 300.

For a 50sec performer the opening 300 in 36sec range might leave the athlete wrecked for the next 100m.

So you needed to look at other measures to shore up that homestraight 100.

That might include a broken set consisting one fast 300m, then brief rest (from 30sec out to as much as 2mins) or jog some short distance, say 50 metres, followed then by a flying 50m or even out as far as 150m (if you wanted to generate lactic acid for tolerance reasons).

We did many variations of that type of training which usually appeared twice a week nearly all year around.

Broken reps (sets) take a little getting used to, especially if the athlete had been used to running long reps, typically out to 600m.

But I found at least to my own satisfaction that for all athletes this worked very well and led to them running many personal bests at all distances.

That is not to say of course they would not have run even faster had they gone with the traditional longer unbroken reps, but they chose to stay with my kind of program presumably because they enjoyed doing it and enjoyed the outcomes.

There is a little bit on this in the “lactate threshold” thread under Fundamentals :slight_smile:

Thanks Kit Kat, your explanation is really helpful. I knew that it was all in the “lactic” thread (that’s where I first encountered the workout), but that thread is so long I thought I would try to take a shortcut and ask here.

I am a high school coach, meaning a short season that has to peak for week 11. We have meets every week. If a meet can be considered a Special Endurance workout, do you think it is okay to do a 2 X 2 X 200 or the split run workout in addition, say during weeks 4-8?

What is the rest?

IIRC, 2 mins between reps and full recovery between sets.

Correct. If you do it this way, you won’t overcook anyone.

And, yes, it’s a good endurance session but no later in the week than Wednesday for schoolkids, preferably earlier, then the rest of the week can be rest, speed, tempo and/or race modelling before racing on the weekend.

Thanks. Our meets are on Thursdays and we cannot work out on weekends, so I guess I will do these type of workouts mid-season on Mondays, with speed on Tuesday and ExTempo on Wednesdays and Fridays. Sound okay? With Thursday meets, we are kind of stuck. We cannot get 48 hours each between these workouts, speed work and meets. Any advice appreciated.

Cna you do the SE on Sunday?

Kitkat, I remember that the 6 x 200m was done off of 2mins rest, but I had thought that the 2 x (200 + 200) was done off of 30 secs rest. I think I remember the 300 tempo + 150 max was also done off of 30secs rest.

Just to keep things straight, is there ever a 200 + 200 off of 30secs, or is the rest always 2mins?

Thank you for your continued, excellent input.

Hi Star,

We never did 200+200 off anything other than 2mins, certainly Never 30-seconds.

I was looking for a more controlled response in the back-up 200m.

But the 300+150 was used purely to generate big lactic response. I just found that with the athletes I worked with, I got better technical running from a broken rep (300+150) than I did from a single rep of 450 to 700m in range.

If I wanted something from the 300+ session that would help simulate “lift” or a kind of racing response to entering the home straight during a 400m, then I used 300+60 or variations of a long depletion rep followed by a short, highly explosive backup rep. The shortness of the backup rep enabled and encourage the athletes to “lift” because - even though tired - they still had enough left to rise to the occasion for a very short backup run of no more than 60m .

It’s all in the lactic theshold thread anyway :slight_smile:

Unfortunately, no. I think for those middle weeks of SE on Monday and speed on Tues, I will just have to keep the speed totals down. I definitely do not want to overtrain the kids (who I have to hold back as it is). Do you think I would be better off with speed on Monday and SE on Tues for Thursday meets?

But the 300+150 was used purely to generate big lactic response. I just found that with the athletes I worked with, I got better technical running from a broken rep (300+150) than I did from a single rep of 450 to 700m in range.

For what it’s worth, I have been using KitKat’s program for 3 years now with great success, I am old school trained as well as being an old sprinter, I used to do repeat 500’s and 600’s as part of 400 training, but I can tell you that the past two seasons I have made great gains in my 400 from the 300+150 session, I use it periodically as a time trial or to fine tune my speed endurance, I’ve found it much better than doing those long repeats, not race specific enough, if you take 30 seconds between the 300 repeat the 150 will hurt but it gets better and when it does your 400 will come down, great workout, would not eliminate it, hope this helps. :o

I have som questions for KitKat or any one else who is familiar with his philosophy.
At what point in the season are these kind of training supposed to be? (6200 and 22200)Do you start with the 6200 in november and working the times to maybe 24 in the end of Jan? I´m aiming for 50 sec at the 400 next season. (Start them at 32 and lower the time after two weeks to 31 then two weeks later do them in 30) At the beging, do I use like 10-8200 or is it strict 6200?
The 6*200 they are with 2 min rest all year round no matter what?

In the “lactate threshold” thread under Fundamentals there is a (very) detailed description and discussion of the concurrent program theory and the types of sessions involved (inc 6x200 and 200+200)

The 6x200 was a figure I settled on but it was sometimes 5x200. The number of reps depended on how fit the athlete was, how tolerant the athlete was to this kind of endurance training and how fast the speed of the 200s.

6x200 was done during the General Preparation Phase (GPP). If we went back into consolidating the base later during the year, sometimes 6x200 would be reintroduced.

But usually once we entered into the pre-competition or in-competition phases of the year, we broke the 6x200 session down into one set or two sets of 200+200 and used this work as a yet more race-specific endurance developing set. Sometimes the first 200 was used to race-model for the 400m race pace plan. At other times it was just a moderate tempo run (maybe at the speed of the comehome 200m of the desired 400m race model, eg: if you want to run 44-0 for 400m, the general race model is first 200 in 21, second comeback 200 in 23-seconds).

The 200 multiple sets were always done with a 2mins recovery. BUt as the athletes became fitter the recovery tended to be about 1min 40sec because they jogged 200m recovery distance. We always ran the reps with the prevailing wind on the day. I tried always to keep the technique pretty good, pretty specific to racing positions.

It can be argued that we would have been better to maintain a thread of 6x200 throughout the year, regardless of whether we also introduced work such as 2x200+200.

If you are trying to race 50sec, then your 6x200 pace ultimately should be 26seconds Or slightly faster - because your normal race model for 50.0sec 400 is 24 + 26. (there is of course a degree of individual variation: some will go out much faster and finish much slower to get their 50-flat. BUt it seems the most economical and relatively painless method is to go closer to even-pace which, as expressed in the 400m, involves a differential between the first 200m and the second 200m of about 1-second.