question about allan wells training

Expert Discussion Advanced Sprint Training
161

Right again Stormbikes.

I saw many athletes from a variety of backgrounds including some athletes formerly coached by the best of the anti-pro brigade go to Jim Bradley (and Neil King in the early 80’s) and improve substantially.

Speedball alone will not make an athlete fast - it’s part of the whole package that makes up the training regime. Just as bench press & dead lift won’t make an athlete fast either unless the track part of the program is designed to compliment the gains made in the gym.

The young bloke I mentioned in a previous post who had left the sport disillusioned in March 2008, but following my encouragement came back in July 2008, was astounded at how much better & faster he felt after only 3 months into the program. Yet all he could say was: “I don’t know how this all works, but this is the best I’ve ever run”. In virtually the same conditions, on the same track, 12 months apart he ran over 200m & went from 22.68 to 21.98. (Jan 08 to Jan 09).

This was typical of the improvement in athletes that I experienced whilst with JB in the late 80’s early 90’s.

162

Steve Brimacombe joined Jim Bradley in August 1990.

After 8 months training he wins the Stawell Gift off 6.75m in 11.97s becoming the first man in history to break 12s (electronic timing) in the heat, semi & final.

No amateur running in 1991 so no 100m PB but we can safely say he was probably around 10.7 shape.

In 1992 Brimma beat 4 time national 100m champion Shane Naylor in the Australian 100 yards title at Stawell.

100m Progression (under Jim Bradley)
1992 - 10.55
1993 - 10.36
1994 - 10.29

Brimacombe ran 12.19s from scratch when 2nd in the 1994 Stawell Gift.

Brimma ran at his first international meet at the 1994 Commonwealth Games running a wind assisted 10.28 in the 100m heat and 7th in the 200m final.

In October 1994 Brimacombe left Jim Bradley and went to train with Cliff Mallett at the QAS in Brisbane.

His life time PB stands at 10.28, set whilst at the QAS - so he improved 0.01s in 5 years in the QAS.

Brimacombe was 9th overall, just missing the final of the 200m at the 1996 Atlanta Commonwealth Games.

163

Thanks for the stats Youngy, i think you mean 1994, not 2004 though. But as Sevo stated Brimma’s time isnt really elite 100m running :rolleyes:, which may be the case worldwide, but at the time in Australia he was the most elite sprinter which we had.

164

So let’s cut the crap and get to the point Youngy, huh?

The young bloke I mentioned in a previous post who had left the sport disillusioned in March 2008, but following my encouragement came back in July 2008, was astounded at how much better & faster he felt after only 3 months into the program.

Considering that you have been in touch with this guy, and that you are familiar with the Bradley method could you do us all a big favour?

Get the guy to write down thoroughly what kind of training he did up until March 2008 and then write down detailed training he did when he was astounded during those 3 months.

We can read and analyse both plans and will be able to make a judgment purely based on that. We do not need someone’s interpretation of someone’s feelings when talking about these things.

So, what is the Bradley method? Show us some examples, plans that you have collected and studied over 25 years and that are related to your examples.

Thanks.

P.S. The Bradley method consists of JB methodology BUT does not include your own plan in which you have incorporated CF’s methodology.

165

Again and again you keep missing the point!!
Not quite sure where exactly you draw the line
that separates elite from non-elite but that is
irrelevant. The improvement is there, this cannot be denied.

These weight room numbers also don’t really
mean a lot as each person’s body make up is
very different. I alway laugh when i see these
numbers on things like pushups. Very few can
do 100 pushups if done properly. Most people
bounce and go way too fast when doing them
when they should be done very slowly for the
greatest benefit. 20 or 30 with perfect form
done slowly is what’s required but really none
of this matters much.
Surely someone missed the method that would
have taken Brima from 10.3 or so to 9.8!!! or
maybe it just wasn’t possible!

Obviously we don’t have any of what you would
classify as “elite” sprinters here. I just fail to
see what that has to do with the Bradley method.

166

Hang on Sevo; cut what crap? I’ve only offered genuine examples of athletes who have made significant improvements whilst using a Jim Bradley based program.

And I’m not just ‘in touch’ with ‘this guy’ - I coach him. I won’t be offering specific details of what he did before & after - mainly because I’m not exactly sure what he did before he joined us in July 2008. What I can tell you is that from September 2006 to March 2008 (covering 2 Australian summers) he was coached by a SASI (South Australian Sports Institute) based coach with a program designed by sports scientists.

The SASI program involved -
Drills;
Plyos;
Medicine ball;
Hyperextensions;
Weights - eg: bench press, dead lifts, curls, seated rows, good mornings, squats, lat pull-downs;
Sit ups - but not many, mainly about 30 or so in different variations;
Accelerations;
Tempo runs over various distances but mainly over 100m, 120m 150m & 200m;
Some reps up to 600m;
Hill Runs.

So it was pretty full on.

In respect to the sort of program he now does - there’s 11 pages on this thread (to date) as well as other threads on the CF website and lots of other sources you could research yourself regarding Allan Wells’ training and the Jim Bradley program.

George McNeil wrote a very good & inspiring book on his own career and spoke about Jim’s speedball program. And then there’s Jim Bradley’s book which outlines the program in his own words.

I’ve discussed the subject ad nauseum on this site - I reckon we’ve just about done it to death.

167

I’ve discussed the subject ad nauseum on this site - I reckon we’ve just about done it to death.
Here,here.Sev doesn’t like the Bradley method.So what and who cares.Don’t use it.

168

To comment further on a number of points discussed in this thread, I did once have a conversation with Brimacombe about the differences between Bradley and his other coaches. The greatest point I gather from him was that the program that Bradley offers is most successful simply because it is Bradley that implements it. Other Bradley athletes have also said something similar that seem to suggest he is pretty tough on his athletes in the gym, on the track and toward life in general while he is your coach. I just cannot go passed these things about Bradley- you train not only using his speedball methods, but also live in the disciplined manner he prescribes and you will improve. In my opinion, this intestinal fortitude that is build into the athlete is probably their strongest asset.

169

Agree completely - that is the general underlying
idea i understand from his methods - discipline and
mental toughness!

170

Not quite sure where exactly you draw the line
that separates elite from non-elite but that is
irrelevant.

Well, I think it is obvious to many where we draw the line. Elite sprinters are those that belong to this elite group of a very few athletes that run the fastest times. Above average sprinters are those sprinters found in many countries around the world. Average sprinters are those that can go under 11sec but can not make it to the international level.

Brimma was a sprinter in - above average group. Also, how many people would mention Wells’ name if all other nations that boycotted the 1980 games in fact participated in them? Anyway, all the credit to Wells he deserved it but an exception does not make a rule.

Brimma was one of the best Australian sprinters. We all know where the Aussie sprint belongs to.

The improvement is there, this cannot be denied.

Obviously you are missing the point here. I have said numerous times that while using the JB method one can improve but will not make it to the elite level. Why is it so hard to understand this? Unless you too are a pro runner that wasted half of his life trying to hit speed balls?

These weight room numbers also don’t really
mean a lot as each person’s body make up is
very different.

Mate, if you can not bench press more than 110kg even when you are asleep you will not run 10 sec. in 100m.

I alway laugh when i see these
numbers on things like pushups. Very few can
do 100 pushups if done properly.

Really? All of my athletes including juniors can do MORE then 100 push ups. There are some who can go over 200 push ups. And you keep laughin’ as much as you want.

Most people
bounce and go way too fast when doing them
when they should be done very slowly for the
greatest benefit. 20 or 30 with perfect form
done slowly is what’s required but really none
of this matters much.

Here we go. 20 quality push ups :slight_smile: I see why there is no improvement in pro running :slight_smile:

Surely someone missed the method that would
have taken Brima from 10.3 or so to 9.8!!! or
maybe it just wasn’t possible!

Did he do it? Oh, no, he didn’t so it is impossible until he does it. Will he do it at the age of 38? Never.

Obviously we don’t have any of what you would
classify as “elite” sprinters here. I just fail to
see what that has to do with the Bradley method.

Here? You mean on this forum or in Australia? In Australia you do not have elite sprinters these days. If you had them they would have been competing at the WG or the OG.

What is the JB method? Show me some examples? Give me a comprehensive plan and make a comparative analysis using some athletes that improved to an elite level while punching speed balls?

Can you do that?

Youngy,

I won’t be offering specific details of what he did before & after - mainly because I’m not exactly sure what he did before he joined us in July 2008.

I bet this would reveal many things. If he was pulling his skin all day every day or if someone was running him into the ground then sudden improvement when he came over to you is self-explanatory.

So it was pretty full on.

So all of this stuff does not work but speed balls do work? LOL

George McNeil wrote a very good & inspiring book on his own career and spoke about Jim’s speedball program. And then there’s Jim Bradley’s book which outlines the program in his own words.

I do not need to research further becasue I do have the facts here with me Youngy. I am not asking to learn something I am already familiar with and something that I have observed over the years rather I am asking you to post a comparative analysis and areas of improvement of those athletes that were on other program than JB and then on the JB program so we all clearly see WHY this improvement has happened. Has any of these athletes after improving made it to the international level? I guess not because simply there are no elite sprinters that use this method.

Kentcounty,

The greatest point I gather from him was that the program that Bradley offers is most successful simply because it is Bradley that implements it.

This translates to - ONLY Jim was capable of using his own program to its full extent, right? So, when Youngy wants to use it it won’t work. When anyone else tries to use it it won’t work! Why?

on the track and toward life in general while he is your coach.

That’s why! Youngy or any other coach that will try to replicate JB methods won’t exactly do it right because it would not be as comprehensive as Jim’s. In other words, if they can not replicate it to its full extent, and I consider this method to be S&C program limited only to crazy pro runners, imagine how successful could they be :slight_smile: There must be a reason why CF’s methods are added to Jim’s S&C methods in Youngy’s program :slight_smile: So drop this and do a more advanced program and you will have a better chance of making it. Why would you use JB’s method when you have already a far more comprehensive and advanced system created by Charlie, or Hart, or other more successful coaches. And all of these coaches have successfully completed Year 10 :slight_smile:

Imagine a life coach (philosopher) that did not make through Year 10! Honesly guys, hire Harry Potter instead.

LOL

171

Whatever the merits or otherwise of your debate(?) here, Allan Wells was the best 100m competitor in the world in 1980. The Americans were going through a lean season, but the best of them feared Wells in 1980 and he met the fastest among them post Moscow, beating them and winning the race. He was a brute of an athlete and the mere sight of the guy that year left guys like the gifted American Mel Lattany in fear. I know because Mel admitted it to me.

172

What???

173

The cross training effects of boxing (speedball) & circuits do have cross over benefits to sprint running. From the pure physiological perspective increased oxygen efficiency and higher anaerobic threshold will only be beneficial for a sprinter for multiple reasons.

I have been doing speed skating for the last 6 months as an alternate stimulus for sprint running and have had very positive cross over effects for sprinting. Cross training can work providing the balance is appropriate. In the case of the injury prone athlete cross training is a vital training ingredient.

174

I am not familiar with JB’s methods, but based on the above statement it is like saying you expect a sprinter following the CF system to become faster by doing tempo & MB sessions only. Is speed ball All they are doing?

This simply isn’t true!

175

What about the year in 1988 when Frankie Corsello won the BURNIE Gift,then 2 weeks later won the Ringwood 400 then won the Stawell 200m then an hour later won the 400m.Both in scintillating style off very tight marks.This feat at Stawell has not been repeated since.
By the way he was trained by Evan Armstrong who used the Bradley method with considerable success.

176

Sevo wrote: “That’s why! Youngy or any other coach that will try to replicate JB methods won’t exactly do it right because it would not be as comprehensive as Jim’s. In other words, if they can not replicate it to its full extent, and I consider this method to be S&C program limited only to crazy pro runners, imagine how successful could they be There must be a reason why CF’s methods are added to Jim’s S&C methods in Youngy’s program So drop this and do a more advanced program and you will have a better chance of making it. Why would you use JB’s method when you have already a far more comprehensive and advanced system created by Charlie, or Hart, or other more successful coaches. And all of these coaches have successfully completed Year 10.”

Who the hell are you to offer me advice on how I could be a better coach - I suspect you are light years behind me in terms of achieving coaching success. I don’t come on this forum to be ridiculed about the methods I employ.

I’m based in Adelaide where athletics is very much a minority sport with about 600 registered athletes. I assume you are from Melbourne where the general population is 5 times that of Adelaide and has an athletic population around 7 to 8 times that of Adelaide so exponentially you should have achieved a hell of a lot more than a mug like me using an archaic, mediocre training system.

So it’s about time you started to tell us about the wonderful success you’ve had by NOT using speedball.

I won’t even begin to ask about ‘elite’ athletes because if you had coached one remotely close to a Wells, a McNeil, a Brimacombe etc, I’m sure you would have told us by now. So I’ll keep the questions at a reasonable level for an A grade interclub athlete.

So Sevo please answer the following 10 questions:

  1. How many sub 11s athletes have you coached, who are they, what did they run?

  2. How many sub 22s athletes have you coached, who are they, what did they run?

  3. How many sub 48s 400m athletes have you coached, who are they, what did they run?

  4. How many open state 100/200/400 champions have you coached?

  5. How many 100/200/400 finalists at a national open championship have you coached?

  6. How many medallists in a national title whether it be U/20, U/23 or open have you coached?

  7. How many athletes have you had make an Australian team at an open level?

  8. What is the highest level including fastest 100m times any athlete of yours has achieved?

  9. What is your single biggest achievement as a coach?

177

I await with glee for the answers? :smiley:

178

Many years ago Loren Seagrave told me he thought one of the things he brought to athletics coaching was his insights and some movement ideas gained from his own background in ice skating: hockey maybe, can’t remember now. As an aside, when you go to Oslo you see lots of speed skaters etc walking in deep, slow lunges around the track doing their summer training for their ice season…

However, I do suspect the ice work may be of greater help to an athletics sprinter in taking the bend, rather than any other aspect of the track sprint.

179

Good points Sharmer - I’ve often used speedskaters as an example to others about the importance of using the upped body in sprint mechanics. It is a much more pronounced action but the basic movement, the coordination, balance and overall upper body strength have obvious similarities.

180

When you talk about ‘cross over’, do you refer to the right shoulder and left hip/knee (and left to right), or is the ‘cross over’ between sports?