Theoretically, it sounds as if this is correct but my question is if the feeling of going faster is actually going faster? I’m assuming that you feel the deceleration of the curve and the “pull” (incorrect term, but I think this is what you’re getting at regarding the transition from the bank to the straight) as you come out? Wouldn’t this be your “normal” speed on the straight (since the enhanced feeling of speed is subjective, race PR’s aside)? Does your analysis of your past training logs support your thoughts QUIK?
the heresy bit was meant as a joke. :rolleyes:
The only real question that needs to be asked is why do people generally run faster on banked tracks? Are you just saying that banked tracks give you an enhanced feeling of speed mentally?
All I want to know is why people run faster on banked tracks if it is not overspeed? I feel like it is just like why you would run faster if there is a big gust of wind for a few seconds as you are running a 200 outdoors and coming off the curve? Even if for some reason your top speed isn’t faster, something is faster? And since “something” is faster which enabled you to run a faster time you just took your body to a place it has not been before. This is a neural stimulus which I would consider a type of overspeed work.
I know this post wasn’t very scientific but I don’t know another way to state it.
No offense taken. 
I understand what you’re getting at. It’s an interesting concept, your initial thoughts should encourage you to work on it more. Good luck.
The reason why you run faster when there is a tailwind is because of decreased air resistance. You are not being blown around by any wind, rather, resistance is decreased (but still present). Overspeed, by definition, is beyond your natural capacity, while wind to your back would just limit the resistance, letting you demonstrate the capacity (this would be different if you were being blown down the track). The argument against traditional overspeed in downhill running and towing is that you are significantly different mechanically or not even really running sometimes (in the case of towing, where you are simply being pulled, rather than producing greater amounts of force or higher frequencies or the like).
The reason why running down a banked track probably wouldn’t be overspeed is because you would have needed to hit max velocity before going down to go OVER your current max speed capacity.
You are correct in that banked tracks typically have better 200m times, but I think that is more related to how it lets people handle the curves rather than “overspeed”, since you are not likely to even reach your true max speed in a 200m indoor race.
Wow. That was a great analysis. Thanks, Davan.
What if running off the bank is allowing you to reach the same speed with less effort allowing you to carry that effort for longer? This would be “overspeed endurance”. You are able to maintain that speed for longer with less effort.
I don’t know if that makes any sense but it may. Just brainstorming here. Reguardless if what I/we are talking about is overspeed by definition I am curious now as to know if running off of banks is a good method to develope and or working on maintaining SPEED. I think I may be onto something here. Maybe one reason why Arkansas have had alot of sucess???
Arkansas has a lot of success because of 1. recruiting and 2. probably, at the very least, good coaching (if not great). Slipping money to student athletes and giving them other benefits might be 3, but I think their track is not quite that high on the list. This is beyond the point though…
I think charlie has mentioned before using banks and slight slopes, if necessary, to help get going. This, in itself, is not overspeed by definition. It may let you hit more repetitions of max speed without expending as much energy, similar to using flying sprints (more relaxed run-ups use less energy and give you more practice opportunities @ top speed).
What you describe sounds like a flying sprint beyond the max speed section turned into a speed or special endurance run. Not sure the efficacy or use, but maybe someone else has experience.
Not sure about the idea of mintaining speed longer in this manner (you’d run out of room before you could find out) but it is reasonable to think you could do it with less energy cost and therefore more often.
The same could be done with a stretchy cable to get you started outdoors where you’d have more room. I have no objection to help getting going into your speed zone, only overspeed which will change your mechanics.
Makes sense. Perhaps for an athlete (myself?) the bank is allowing me to relax coming off which is allowing me to hit my top speed expending less energy than I normally do which is keeping me relaxed/“fresh” for a longer period of time. In turn if used in training this could be a great method. Although this makes sense I still think that at some point I am able to hit a higher speed whether it be during a max velocity segment or earlier when running off of the bank than when when even throughout on flat ground. For how much and how long this higher top speed is maintained I do not know. Even if it is “helping me get started” there has to be some early segment that is faster which could even be called overacceleration since the true definition of overspeed doesn’t fit.
Quickazhell;
Are you doing less weighs work lately? i ask becuase I vaguely remember you saying a short while back that you were reaching a point where the xtra weights being lifted (this last year or so) were not translating to more sprint speed. Ofcourse you have since corrected the speed situation with your recent times.(atleast I think it was you that made the comments a while back.)
Has your weightlifting volume changed recently?
one of my athletes made a .4s improvement using overspeed training in 1 season. he dropped his time from 10,7 to 10,3 and the only major change to his training routine was the introduction of overspeed. in his case his mechanics actually improved cos he used 2 over emphasis stride lenght.
If he overstrided, how did overspeed help him?
Research looked at the kinematics and found it had no effect on stride rate, but rather lead to the foot contacting the ground further infront of the center of mass=lengthening of the stride.
what kind of overspeed you used? how did you manage overspeed training with other elements and with different stage of preparation (SPP - PCP - CP)? your other athletes used overspeed, and what were their scores? thx!
I lift twice a week. I bench or DB Bench, do pullups or pulldowns, heavy abs, and Powersnatch from hang. That is all. Besides Powersnatch no lower body.
I can see how Arnies athlete may have gotten faster. The overspeed was a neural stimulus. Simple as that. Also it may not have been so fast that it disrupted technique. And even if it did disrupt technique a bit. So what. He survived it (did not get hurt). And when he sprinted without it he technique went back to normal but perhaps his frequency was increased.
Sometimes I think we get too scientific and “biomechanical” with things. There is still a ton we do not know.
You can find studies that say just about anything. Who was the study done on? What was the training prior? How long was the overspeed used? How fast were they going? The study seemed to answer the question of oversped from a biomechanic standpoint but There is a ton of questions that could be asked and in a controlled setting everything doesn’t pan out the same as it does in the real world. From a biomechancis standpoint the study may be dead on however I think there is alot more to it regarding where improvements may actually come from.
ESTI This wasn’t meant to be taken personal
It’s the synchronization that concerns me here, QUIK (coordination of the motor pattern). And how could it have been “not have been so fast” if it’s overspeed? It’s a slippery slope we’re on here. I think the banking model you were on will serve you better. The overspeed just seems to leave so much on the table. It makes the whole process seem very artificial. The psychological effects would seem to benefit many in a similar situation to yours: athletes who know enough to analyze their technique, but don’t have quite enough info to change what they feel is wrong. I think this parallels my olympic lifting experience: in the early-going even though I understand the lift models for the clean and jerk and the snatch, I’m looking through beginner or intermediate eyes as an athlete (reverse of your situation here). I haven’t experienced enough of the complete lifts to really know what I’m trying to accomplish. In short, I’m using expert analysis to assess beginner performance. You can’t maintain those standards when lacking education/background/experience in any combination. It makes the whole process sketchy (which is also why it’s great to have access to great sprint/performance minds such as Charlie).
In comparing this to my own performance (with the ol’s), I tell people I know just enough to be dangerous with the full lifts. But not really enough to be truly helpful. Such is the case with overspeed. Many here have chosen to disregard their use in training, so you may be better served speaking to someone with more experience/insight into the overspeed process.
The variations of the lifts have served athletes I’ve trained better thus far, but to truly optimize the process I’ll have to gain a better understanding of the complete lifts (and process) before I can break them up into bits and pieces. We’re dealing with bits and pieces of overspeed here as well.
If you disagree with everything regarding overspeed training, why not contact a real expert on it’s use (such as Angel Spassov, who I believe advocates overspeed).
50m section time analysis done during 1988 European Indoor Champs showed that the 50-100m section average speed was actually “over-speed” : Linford Christie did 12.14m/s in heats and Nikolay Razgonov 12.07m/s in final.
Thanks for confirming that Pierrejean. I know when I am going faster than I normally able to go. Do you have other analysis? Also what are your thoughts about using the banked track as an overspeed method?
Anyone that runs on a banked track if run correctly should feel this. I sometimes feel as though if I dont get my feet down fast enough I am going to eat a mondo sandwhich. Perhaps my foot is in fact landing ahead of my center of mass at some point coming off the curve. All I know is my times are faster.