Both Powell and Gatlin are unusually tall for sprinters that have excellent 30m and 60m times. They have two different drive styles, and they also have extraordinary acceleration in my opinion. What can we learn from this?
A good big man always beats a good little man.- George F. Jowett
True dat.
SeanJos
Seanjos, I take it you are a fan of Old Time lifters? Good to see that someone on this board believes in the fact that nothing beats simplicity. I think we should all take a trip back to pre 50’s to learn exactly how things should be done. Post 50’s…well, you know the rules…
what is considered a big man?
Both Powell and Gatlin are over 6 ft 1". tall and weigh in excess or around 185lbs, quite large when compared to the majority of WR holders in 100m. Traditional theory would suggest that because they have long limbs and heavier body mass, the leverage required to have fast acceleration in the sprint start would not be “as available”.
Most sprinters I have viewed to have very fast starts are usually in the 5’8"- 5"11" and 160-175 range. Powell himself weights about 190, I think, and this makes him pretty big for a 100m guy. It was just an insight that I thought could bring up a good discussion.
I myself am 5’8-5’9 and i weigh now at 173, But i have ran at 185. I am trying to get to about 170-168 and keep my strenght level high, But alot of the new sprinters are getting big. x carter, walter dix (he is about 5’10 190) also alot of his teamates at fl state weight aroung 185-190, Sheldon morant(JA) 5’9-5’10 190, KEvon Pierre he is aroung 6’2 and big, jason smoots. Alot of sprinters are running with alot of a weight and rolling.
youve got to be kidding me. this is a joke right. you guys are basing ability of a person in the 100m on their size. how tall was ben johnson? next thing youll be comparing hand size to top speed. or how about nose length. its simple the faster you can get force to the ground and the more force you can get to the ground the faster you are. by your reasoning basketball centers would be the fastest people in the world if the trained for it.
James, you missed the point. Biomechanically, longer levers move slower. A greater moment arm reduces the ability of creating acceleration. In a cyclic movement, more torque per radiant would be required to accelerate.
And yes, the physical dimensions do certainly affect the abilities of anyone, although it is not the only factor. Go ask any gymnast.
Arguably the 2 fastest runs of all time–Mo’s 9.82 in edmonton (major injury) and BJ’s 9.79 (slow track/slowing up) in Seoul–were both run by guys under 5’10". Asafa and Gatlin are great, but if I recall both are still within the realm of normal heights (each ~6’2"). While certainly bigger, how much bigger? Relative to their height, not all that much considering BJ was 173 and Mo was sometimes up to 185 at smaller heights.
If these guys were 6’4"+ (like Bolt who is 6’6" I believe), then there would be a serious point, but we have already seen guys like Lewis, Christie, Bailey, and Surin run fast times at similar heights and masses.
Davan, I get your point, but I cant recall a sprinter as massive as powell running consistent sub 9.9s. I would like to see a mathmatical model that could tell how much more force was required per inch of height (or lever length) to obtain the similar accelerations in various limbs of the body. It would be interesting…an inch make a huge difference.
I wouldn’t worry too much about how tall a sprinter is, your not going to be able to make one shorter or taller. I would worry more about what these guys are doing that allows them to apply this force. Short or tall people can run fast times. Outside of Mo was else has run consistent sub 9.9 besides these two?
actually longer levers move faster at their distal end comapred to the proximal end. and this is what offsets the poor mechanical leverage of most of the bodies joints. radial acceleration increases at the distal end with an increase in moment arm. hence a kid holding onto a rope spinning a ball connected at the other end will afford a situation in which the child rotating is covering a given distance and the ball is covering a greater distance directly proportional to the lenght of the rope.
James your missing the point.
“Biomechanically, longer levers move slower. A greater moment arm reduces the ability of creating acceleration. In a cyclic movement, more torque per radiant would be required to accelerate.”
Longer levers will move slower with the same amount of force. I was not comparing the distal end versus the proximal end, I never mentioned that. I was merely stating that sprinters with longer levers are mechanically at a disadvantage due to lever length and the further distribution of mass from the COG.
Step outside the physics box and step into the physical box. In nature larger things move slower, that is the case in all land mammals, and Im not comparing a man with an elephant, Im saying a large man will general move slower than a small man.
Everyone on here tries to prove other people wrong because they take every word literal and forget the point that the poster was trying to make. That is a mistake.
Paul, you are correct, and my point was exactly that:
“Both Powell and Gatlin are unusually tall for sprinters that have excellent 30m and 60m times. They have two different drive styles, and they also have extraordinary acceleration in my opinion. What can we learn from this?”
well whats your theory as to why they have great 30 meter times for being “so tall”? If you look at Asafa’s body type he doesn’t have that long of legs for someone that is his height so it would be less difficult for him to keep a high stride frequency over the first 30 compared to someone like Carl who has very long legs. So do you think that someone who is taller should have a better 2nd half of the race automatically? ie. comparing Greene (who’s shorter) to Powel (taller)?
ur actually a little off… ur right in stating that it will require more muscle force to accelerate a longer motor arm but if youve studied basic biomechanics as lever systems you would kno that a longer lever arm results in a greater distal acceleration of said lever arm. this greater distal acceleration increases ground contact forces. this is the same reasoing behind a whip the tip of the whip is moving a whole hell of alot faster than the part in ur hand. so its not absolutly correct to say that larger is slower. their are offsetting varaibles which must be considered hence the ability for both shorter and taller athletes to run fast. as for u not comapring distal and proximal parts of a moment arm, you should of because there is the flaw in your argument about larger moment arms being slower.
Ok James, First off, my minor was biomechanics. If you want to get technical I can get technical. However, I won’t because a great teacher is set apart from a great learner in that they help OTHERS understand what they know.
Im not going to give a simplistic example of what I was trying to point out, I simply have better things to do…like training to break 10.
“but if youve studied basic biomechanics as lever systems you would kno that a longer lever arm results in a greater distal acceleration of said lever arm.”
Correction, only if the lever is covering an equal distance at the same speed will the distal acceleration be greater from a longer lever. That was exactly my point. Because the lever is longer, physiologically, more effort will be needed from the tissues of the body to acheive that same acceleration.
Im not saying long levers can’t be fast, just that more torque is required when compared to a shorter lever.
Tell me James, why are you so concerned with proving people on this board wrong? From your posts in seanjos’ thread you seem to always hop on people. Do you get off from your efforts of seeming more intelligent when all it really does is make you seem foolish?
Why is it foolish? Because you don’t know how fast the people are that you are arguing against. Be more humble, you might learn more.
Paul, Im not sure I have a theory as to why they have excellent 30-60m for taller sprinters. I’ll have to do more video analysis, but I’ll keep you posted if I see anything significant.
Also, at this time the 100m, 200m, and 400m WR are currently owned by individuals exceeding 6’ and 180lbs (slightly). Thats just an observation I was thinking about today. Im not an anthropometric geek, just said “hmmm” when I thought about it.
When 2 of the records are held by the same person, that isn’t awfully odd ;). There are though more sub 9.8 runners who are under 6’ then there are over 6’. In fact, it wasn’t until Asafa and Gatlin that anybody of 6’ went under 9.84.
i never contested that longer lever arms donr require more muscle force to produce the same angualr accelration. all i was pointing out was that the lever system employed by many of the bodies joints ofsets the mechanical disadvantage by achieving greater distal accelerations and therfor greater ground contact forces. i was only pointing out the otherside of the issue that there is more than one vairable when considering mechanical disadvatages. you choose to argue from the stand point that because of a long lever arm more force is need to accelerate im only pointing out that the longer lever arm also affords greater ground contact force which can compensate to some extent for the disadvatage. maybe you should rethink whos acting foolish, dont take a opposing comment as an insult at no point did i completly deny the validity of your point. maybe you should be more humble and not take everything as a personal attack, but perhaps an academic discussion.
holy cow man, what a crazy discussion?
we need to stop worring about what makes others like they are, and concentrate on what makes You fast.
if your short, work on what short people do for speed and dont worry about tall people, thinking like that will make you start doubting your own ability. Concentrate on what Your limbs are doing, compare to somebody else that has a similiar bodytype as yours and is where You want to get.
In response to your original Q. they got there by hard smart training.