Hello. Would you say for speed endurance, daily volume of highest volume day should be around maybe 500 instead of 960 and keep everything else under 500? I do see that with the numbers I suggested, the changes in number of volume tend to be a bit drastic, as I’m not very good at math.
Thank you for your reply.
Hi, yes I would say so, my athletes tend to do 2x4x60m, we did try 3 sets at one stage, but they were trashed afterwards and struggled 48 - 72 hours later so not worth the extra set. I have used 3x3x60m to introduce a bit more quality to the reps and that worked due to an extra set recovery. Speed sessions I tend to keep them between 360 and 500m depending upon the focus. My athletes are in the 11.0 -12.0 bracket at the moment (that’s the guys).
You should be able to handle similar SE volume esp if you make the adjustments to the intensity limits. EX: Week 1 - 2x30 standing+3x4x60 (10m). I prefer to keep the SE volume similar to the graphs and cut down the speed volume - SE work is not as stressful on the body.
Thank you for your inputs on volume adjustment.
So you’re saying the volume I originally suggested should be doable if intensity is low? (10m) means acclerate 10m and hold speed, right? When you say SE volume similar to the graph, are you referring to Inside the SPP example or GPP essentials?
Thank you.
Spp. I’m not saying anything nor can anyone else tell you how much volume you should do - give it a try and adjust if you can’t handle it. Intensity will always rule over volume - 900m of speed work at 90% is different from 900m of speed work at 95-100% etc.
Thank you for your clarification.
BOL, keep us posted.
Most people can handle 400m speed work twice per week and 2000m of tempo twice per week. Various age groups can handle this. More than these rough volumes and it becomes very individual in my observation. The speed endurance portion is more variable as RB noted, but more than 600m total is rare. It also depends on program. I wouldn’t do more than two hi days in spp.
Thank you for your input on deciding volume. Looks like it really is tough without full therapy to train at volume near what Coach Francis recommended…I just thought before that it shouldn’t make much difference because most of his athletes train at such a high intensity, that every meter they run would do more CNS fatigue than someone like me, but I guess they can tolerate both higher intensity and volume.
Good comment by RB34, I was working with an intensity limit of 20m. I daresay we could add the 3rd set if I dropped the IL to 10m or might even get away with 15m. I agree with lr1400 re volume, obviously its different for individuals but 400m speed and 2000m of tempo twice per week are a good guidline.
Not just myself, but many who i have coached, Not all the time, but, Hit a training PB over 280m (two straights and one bend) on our Third run. That’s 840m.
I’ve hit a training PB over 400m in my 3rd rep many times.
It’s greatly varied for many different folks.
We have had great successes by the following rule over these distances
1 - volume max is 3 efforts
2 - If you hit a pb or equal PB in the 1st rep then your 2nd rep is a 150m only
3 - If you hit a PB or equal PB in the 2nd rep then you STOP
4 - If you’re feeling flat - just run the 3, but with greatly reducing intensity. eg, lets say pb = 32. Then aim for 35-36 but see if you can either, start slow and come home fast, or start fast and cruise home etc.
Typically - if you hit your 3rd rep into a PB - expect to take it easier in a few sessions afterwards and RECOVER.
PB = season PB, not overall lifetime pb
This is just an example of what you can do - don’t be held back by fear.
Hello. Can you please clarify?
Thank you.
Don’t forget this is a great time to work on tech issues and get in extra work while the intensity is lower. I’ll give you another example when making the transition to outdoors - instead of doing 1-3 reps of SE work each week toss in submax SE work ex: 5-6x150 it allows extra recovery and a chance to get more practice reps etc. I believe Charlie gave this example many years ago.
Yes agreed and is what I hope came across in my post above.
3 efforts is 3 x sets.
150m of split runs might for you simply be 2 x 60s
Run the three is run 3 x sets.
Hi Bold, I’m confused (doesn’t take much) are you referring to 3 runs over 280m, dropping down to 150 if you hit a pb or am I way off the mark.
I remember seeing him say that in a thread. Could easily transition from split 60 and 80s --> 6x120 --> 5x150 -->…2-3x120-150
Comment from the forum:
in the forum review, CF says ben seldom ran over 500-600m in any given HI session, however in vertical integration graph it has speed volumes of 2000m-2400m per week, which if doing 3 HI session means an average of 670-800m per session.
so which one is it???
Charlie answers back:
Depends on timing, athlete level and training type and time of year. Example 3 x 300 is not unreasonable in a long to short set up. that’s 900m right there without any other preliminary sprints counted (starts etc)
Speed End sessions will almost always have a higher vol than pure speed regardless of the approach.
As an example of pure speed, Ben ran:
WU
4 x 30m block starts
80, 100, 120, 150 with complete recovery.
That’s a total of 570m but it’s tougher than any other session he had of higher speed volume, since, at times, all the runs were at world record speeds. Such a session would require a 10day period of sub-max work to recover from.
A sub-max session might occasionally have been 6 x 150 which is 900m
Comment from Charlie:
6min break is significant. I’d call that controlled speed work. Guess it depends how you define things. We did 6 x 150 with a 250 slow walkaround (maybe 4min br) as easy speed work at times, either to replace a faster planned session or as a means of recovery.
It would also depend on the timing in the week. Often intensive tempo occurs between speed sessions rather than in place of one of them- that may be where the difficulty lies.
Question:
That makes perfect sense in your template. I think where people, including myself at times, have gotten confused is just labeling anything under a certain % as a bad thing. I remember you mentioning before that you have even used it as a way of extreme unloading (instead of dropping to 95%, to even lower than that), but counting it as a “speed” session rather than as a “tempo” session.
What are your thoughts on the volume aspect that arises when you change the intensities? It seems as-if you can get more productivity out of a slightly higher volume workout that utilizes a bit less intensity, but similar rests versus relying solely on intensity as the main mode of development. I’m talking about developmental athletes BTW and more in the early special prep phases (versus pre-comp or comp).
Legend answers back:
I wouldn’t want to cause more confusion by trying to define the volume change but it will for sure be higher. Example from our training; Speed 95 to 100%, 4 x 30m blocks, 80, 100, 120, 150. = 570m
slightly sub max 4 x 30m blocks, very sub max 6 x 150. = 1020m
Question:
After the indoor season has ended and the first outdoor meet is 4 weeks later what should be done in that amount of time? Id like to know what everyone does.
The last 3 weeks of our indoor season we tapered and this is the first week of preparation for outdoor and our first meet is in 4 weeks so we have 4 full weeks of training.
What should be done in the next few weeks. First this week i was thinking about bumping up the extensive tempo and slightly bumping up the volume of my special enduracne since the last special enduracne session we did was 3x120 i was thinking something like 3x150 but cutting the rest a little so we are not going as fast. As for the short speed i am not quite sure since i really wanna give my Nervous system a rest since i havent been feeling that fast lately.
And last of all how about lifting?
Legend answers back:
If you’re feeling a bit "burned’, you might move to something like 6 x 150 sub-max, with a walk-around (250m) recovery while dropping the short stuff for a week to 10 days. Extensive tempo can be increased for the first two weeks or so. Thoughts?
Question:
ok… so an increase in ext. tempo as well as sub max 150’s.
Do you have any suggestions for my other workout of the week since i will not be doing the short speed?
Also what would you recommend for lifting as far as volume and intensity?
Answers back:
Depending on the state of your recovery, you could use several different scenarios for your other speed session, assuming you’re a 100 and 200m man.
How about a few options- remember these are HIGHLY SPECULATIVE and depend on many other training factors, but for the sake of arguement:
A: Still very CNS drained: 150, 250, 150 very sub-max (below the 95th percentile by time) for form only with complete recovery- 12 to 20 min between runs, depending on performance level.
B: Partially recovered after a few days: 120, 150, 120 at 95 to 97% of best time, with complete recovery- 15 to 25 min between runs depending on performance level.
C: Almost fully recovered: 80, 100, 120, 150 at 97 to 99th percentile with complete recovery with breaks up to 15min, 25 min, and 35 min between the runs.
In each case, there is at least some reduction of CNS stress, as starts, pick-up drills, etc are missing (these have been honed during the indoor period), and a few missed sessions won’t affect anything. They’ll be added back later as recovery is completed but only as far as needed to maintain them, since you’ve already spent considerable time on these areas and are better served using your CNS resourses to perfect top speed and speed endurance qualities. THOUGHTS??
More later: G2G…
Yes.
So as eg
1st 280m = season pb or equal pb
2nd effort is 150 (or similar)
Or
1st 280m is sub best
2nd 280m is equal or pb
3rd rep dropped
Or
1st rep is sub best
2nd rep is sub best
3rd is either sub best or best