My Relationship with my Coach (Crisis)

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Hey Guys and Gals, Rupert, CF, UT, DMartz, etc
Right now, my coach and I have a problem between us. It seems to be an issue regarding differences in perspective and the roles of athletes and coaches. I need some advice from you mature people.

   One day we were doing 5 x 50m drills, 5 x 50m sprints from the blocks, and 5 x 30m accelerations (you start from a jog, then when u hit the mark, you accelerate and run for about 30 m).  I'VE TOLD MY FELLOW SPRINTERS AND MY COACH THAT WHEN TRAINING FOR SPEED, WE NEED TO BE FRESH AND WE NEED TO HAVE [b]LONG RESTS.[/b]  So I've asked politely to have us get more rest, and waited for about 2:30 - 3 minutes (very conservative amount of rest for a 50m sprint, no?).  Others waited for me before we started.  Coach asked me, "What's the magic number?" I explained briefly that to train for speed we need to be [b]fresh[/b], and that two – three minutes is really conservative.  I said that gains the come from sprinting are really neural, etc.  Then we continued our sprints.
   After the sprint session we jogged.  We were supposed to do 2 laps of jogging, but [b]unfortunately, I only did one[/b] -- it was actually more of a walk -- because I was tired from all the sprints and was a little lazy.  I sat down, and then he came up to me.  “You walked a lap.  You can’t even jog two laps.”  I realized that he was right, and so I stood up and faced the track and walked toward it.  He got really mad.  “Don’t you walk away from me!”  Oh crap.  I told him quickly that  I was just gonna do another lap. 
He angrily said how [b]rude[/b] I was because I made everyone wait.  In turn, I explained to him again how improving speed requires long rest periods.  Then he said that our team doesn’t even work or do as much training volume as Long Beach Poly (a great school here in California, known for track/x-country excellence)… I realize that he has the “more is better” mentality… It seems that he doesn’t really see my point of view.

He told me, “You’re so close-minded and so stuck with your beliefs [or something like that]” I think he perceived me as an arrogant idiot…
Then he said how illogical I was; he mentioned my jogging with spikes at the beginning of practices were illogical. He thinks that I’m gonna get a shin-splint or something. I explained to him that “I was just trying new things out;” I question things that I learn and just don’t gulp everything I learn.
He left agitated/irritated/annoyed/pissed.
I jogged my last lap.

Here’s what I think and here’s my paradigms:
What I forgot to tell him–because I wasn’t expecting all of this emotion coming out–though is that I’ve read that training/jogging barefoot is good for you because it trains the relatively dormant muscles of the foot (which became dormant because of faulty footwear and such). I know CF talked about this in CFTS while he talked about tempo training. I know Eric Cressey and Lee Taft also advocate this. But I don’t really like running barefoot, so instead, I use my spikes—pretty much close to barefoot. I forgot to tell him that I haven’t gotten a shin splint (or any type of training injury or so) during my three months of training by myself, and all my deadlifting/jumping/sprinting has probably strengthened my bones and increased my bone density. .
I think that my not jogging two laps was retardedly stupid. Definitely my fault.
I think that his comparison of our training and another school is not valid, though it is a school which produces relatively great high school athletes. This is because I am in Kelly Baggett’s/CF’s paradigm. More is not necessarily better. With speed, it is quality that counts!!!
I think he is right that I am close-minded. After reading so much and trying to learn about the sport, I’ve learned that CF’s ways are basic components of other great training programs…The long-rest approach to improve speed/jump, etc, by Charlie has been validated in Supertraining, NSCA, ACE, NASM, Kelly Baggett (42in+ VJ, 4.27 40y), Mike (elitetrack.com dude), great powerlifters and olympic lifters, and everyone who’s well-versed in basic and advanced training physiology and scientific Russian literature and what not. All that fast-twitch vs slow-twitch, anaerobic vs aerobic system discussions definitely support my view and CF’s view. It seems that there are only a few that go against this philosophy, such as Clyde Hart and Lynford Christie (from what I’ve heard and read). Therefore, because it seems to be proven by a majority of people with credentials, I have really stuck to it. It’s one of my most important beliefs regarding training.

I have spring break right now. My goal right now is to fix my relationship with my coach. I know that this problem between us is an opportunity for us to learn, to grow, and to build a strong relationship between us. Right now, I want him to change his “more is better” mentality. I also wanna understand him better. I think, this way, our program will be more effective. So how would I fix this problem?
Should I just not try to change him and follow my coach’s authoritarian directions when we have practices, and then train on my own on Saturdays-- sprint some quality flying 30’s to preserve my speed? This seems to be the easiest way; it’s a compromise; we wouldn’t have to argue.
The harder but better way
I know I should definitely apologize for not jogging two laps after the sprints.
I feel like I should acknowledge my close-mindedness and my not trying to understand him.
…
I should try to understand his view, then let him understand my view. I dunno if it will work out I think my view probably won’t change anyways if I do. But I should really let him know that I care.
I want both of us to win.
I just want us to do better, but it seems that in the process, I am overstepping his role as a coach, or maybe I’m just being a general idiot.
What the hell do I do!? Help =)

I desperately need your advice.

Thanks for this great forum,
Wu Gong Heng

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How old is your coach?

What historical success has he had?

What is the quality of the current squad like?

Where do rate in that squad?

You said you have been doing your own stuff lately, have your times improved?

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It can be difficult trying to help someone learn, especially when they’re supposed to be helping you learn! Your coach has shown some flexibility, but the key is to let him know that you respect what he’s trying to accomplish with your team. Be patient, and pick your battles. I would definitely sit down and talk with him away from the team and let him know your feelings. You guys both want the same thing: better performance. But when you’re trying to do this, you can never be lazy.

With my weightlifting club, they always laugh at me because I have my watch set on a timer for my rest. The typical response to the beeping is, “Is dinner ready?” But I continue with my timed rest and they don’t really bother me about it. I believe this is primarily because:

1-I am never late to training, and always train hard,
2-I am always willing to give a helping hand (to younger lifters or other lifters), and
3-I always respect their opinions even when everything I’ve read says otherwise.

You’re definitely on the right track though with your current thinking.

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My coach is probably late 40s or 50s.
No success, relative to elite success. We’ve done well in our shitty league, though.
My school’s a private boarding school for rich and/or smart people. (www.cateschool.org)
We only have 270 kids total.
In the team, we only have a few guys and more girls. 5 guys… Only 2 sprinters… me and a freshman. I’m the fastest out of everybody.

After three months, I’ve really just regained what I lost from doing cross-country (I had to play two sports, and saw that this was the lesser evil). My fastest 100m handtimed last year was early season 12.21. A few months ago, I’ve gone 12.17. My deadlift has gone up from 225 to 310 (I’m gonna go up to 315 tomorrow) I think I’m definitely gonna run around 12 flat or below because I just got better spikes (asics japan litening…4.5oz…pretty stiff plate…Last year I’ve used middle distance spikes that were too flexible.)

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Here’s my email to him:

[i]Dear Mr. Barton,
I am truly sorry for not really trying to understand your view. I realize that, like you said at our last encounter, I have been really close-minded; I think this really prevented me from really trying to understand your point of view. After doing much research and learning much, my ego has also gone up the skies. I am happy that you had let me known of my close-mindedness on our last encounter. I’m really sorry.
I am also sorry for not really jogging last time. That was completely stupid and I don’t have any excuse not to jog.
I see this problem between us as an opportunity for us to learn from each other and help each other grow. I think it is really in our best interest to see each other’s perspective, then to synergize and to find the best alternative; after all, we have the same goal of improving and having a better performance.
I want you to know that I really respect you as a person. Your great knowledge and experience is a great asset to me and the team. You are really important to me
Therefore, I think we should meet to share and discuss our views and really hammer it out until we find the best solution. Would sometime on Monday be a good time?
Again, please forgive my egotistic close-mindedness and my laziness (my walking, instead of jogging).
I really look forward to seeing you.

Sincerely,
Edderic Ugaddan

P.S. I hope you’re having a wonderful spring break with your family!
See you soon![/i]

Thanks for the advice, John and Daniel. I need them!

  • Wu Gong Heng
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From that email it sounds like you really pissed him off. I would wait to see his responce before approaching him about changing the training methods. When relationships are strained and the air charged with emotion, an attempt to teach is often perceived as a form of judgment and rejection. Once you can talk to him sensibly, tell him how you think longer rests will benefit speed development. If he refuses say your sorry he feels that way and leave the squad.

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VERY wise words from one so young :slight_smile: (that isn’t meant to be at all patronising )

WGH,
Firstly I need to say how impressive it is that you are addressing this. Many people would either ignore it or simply say stuff him , your actions show a real depth of character, well done.

Have you sent that email yet?

If so what was his response?

If not I wonder if ringing him and arranging a meeting to discuss things. I would have what you wrote there when you ring him and say something along the lines of

I think it we need to meet before our next training session to have a chat. How does X suit you?

take the lead from that but stress it really needs to happen before the next session even if it is 30 minutes before.

He will probably try and discuss it on the phone but say you would prefer not to as you think sitting down and talking face to face would be more appropriate.

If you really feel inclined and feel it would be beneficial you may want to add

I sorry for not really jogging last time. That was completely stupid. I don’t want this current situation to worsen and see it as an opportunity for us to understand the reasoning behind our different approaches.

not much more than that.

If he says no he doesn’t want to meet then ask him where to from here? Regardless of what he says stay calm and say you will need to think about it.

If you would rather discuss this privately feel free to PM me.

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It sounds like you’re taking the proper steps to mend this relationship. Remember, he’s the adult, and if he can’t swallow his pride and make every attempt to work with you, then he’s not much of a coach.

As far as differences in your training philosophies, after things settle down, put your ideas in writing. Then have a calm, mature discussion and try to reach a compromise. Rememeber, he’s the coach, and you’re not his only sprinter.

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I agree that youve handled yourself very well. Many people and I include myself sometimes cannot handle themselves in that type of fashion.

Also after you and your coach have sorted things out, ask him if he would be receptive to the info you are presenting. Write your thoughts down, and even introduce him to this site so that he can see the wealth of information available. After all that and he still denies you then look towards a new coach.

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…Sounds like 7 Habits of Highly Effective People =) …

I dunno if I leaving the squad is an option. School requires sophomores to do two sports a year. I’ve done x-country, and now I just have this. If I do quit and just train on my own, even though its against the rules, I don’t think anyone would force me/hurt me lol

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Thanks for the advice guys! I’ll be back in a few hours from a meeting. Thanks again.

x3
Wu Gong Heng

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coaches all have different opinions and some coaches are really set in their opinions and are not willing to change for anyone.i had probs like so when i was competing but i stuck with what i thought was correct for me.if i thought x was working i’d stick with it but if x wasn’t i’d find out why and address the situation.

whatever i did i had to understand why i was doing it and alot of coaches questioned why i was doing this so i had to explain that i wanted to understand why i’m doing x and whats the theory and benefits and also would it suit ME!

as i said before,some caoches are set in their ways and will not change or take advice from other people.

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I knew someone would pick that up :D, but I’ve memorised it and always think of it in situations like these. From your posts it seems you can think through this situation clearly so I’m sure things will work out for you. Best of luck.

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with him? If so how did it go.

You want to try and get a relationship in place that can work without being a door mat.

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Nah I didn’t meet with him. I went to a different meeting (I’m in NJ right now and he’s back there in CA).

What I’m really striving for is to convince him that long-rests seem to be a principle in high power oriented sports. A meeting with him next week could really only go two ways:

  1. Win-win: I convince him, then he says great idea, then implements long-rests, and everyone runs fasta.
  2. Compromise (Low-form of win-win): He sticks to his guns, I stick to my guns. We train his style (pretty much intensive tempo, not really speed work) during our workouts, while I train on saturdays to, at least, maintain my speed. Kinda what you call “doormat.”
    But we all know option 1 is superior.
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Now…I want to make a strong argument with excellent and convincing ideas. I want to have an effective presentation to make him understand our (CF posters) beliefs.
These are just from the top of my head so they probably need much more work to become a convincing argument.

  1. Seek first to understand…
    Try to really understand what he’s saying:
    Things I need to address:
    a) Give him credit. He has more experience in training athletes than I do,
    b) Apologize. My not jogging two laps was truly my fault; I don’t have an excuse, and that I was truly lazy.
    c) Jogging with spikes (which I did) doesn’t make sense because it stresses the joints/bones more than normal ol’ rubber shoes?

  2. …then seek to be understood.
    c) long rest vs short rest. for improving speed-strength.

        1c) fast-twitch vs slow-twitch.  
    2c) anaerobic vs aerobic system
    3c) Kelly Baggett and his experience with "No Man's Land" (shows how too much conditioning compromises the development of speed-strength, although, of course, it increases endurance). Also acknowledge Kelly B running two 4.27 yd dashes and having a 42+ VJ.          
   4c) CF has developed his athletes to elite level even without the use of illegal substances (until 1984 right?), therefore his training is really legit.  (I'll check Speedtrap for this one)
   5c) Supertraining states that heavy strength training and intense speed training make very similar changes in the body (regarding mitochondria, perysium, sarcomere, or something like that...I gotta get the quotation).  I'm gonna use Kelly B's example:  Powerlifters gain strength MAINLY through lifting heavy shit with long rests, instead of doing foo-foo weights and body building. Since heavy strength training and speed-training produce very similar physiological changes in the body, then long rest makes sense?

I’m gonna be back in 12 hrs or so (because of meetings, etc). Right now I need more evidence–anecdotal/scientific–and critiques. I really need all your brains! Think of how we could change one coach’s life! Let’s make a difference =P

Thanks!
Wu Gong Heng

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Coaches are usually people with lots of pride and don’t take critisism of their programs well by athletes so keep that in mind. I don’t think what you’re doing is a bad idea but keep your idea as a suggestion and don’t tell him that what he’s doing is wrong.

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You speak of training systems as they were religions. If you want to convince him, you must view training as heuristics and empirical observation, something that is constantly being updated with new information. It is hard to change another’s religion, it is far easier to update one’s ideas and methods.

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Well said.

Rupert

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What about
Option 3 You agree to disagree and he allows you to train ‘your’ way all the time and live with the consequences?

Both Captain Pain & quarkthedark make very good points.

To clarify my doormat comment that was in relation to your interaction with him, yes you want a relationship and to achieve that you will need to acknowledge you did some things wrong but do not let him walk all over you (like a doormat) and certainly don’t fling yourself on the ground to be walked over. I’ll show you what I mean using that draft email as an example

[i]I apologize if you were upset at training the other day when I walked instead of running. Then while trying to talk about it I appeared rude when I jogged off. That was never my intention.

It appears we have differing views on how sprinters should train. I acknowledge there is no one way set in stone and I would appreciate the chance to discuss our views at some stage separate from training. How does X suit you?[/i]