MTCCCA Sprint Training Part III Long to Short vs. Short to Long

I understand the purpose of the talk was to contrast two training theories in a high school setting. Ryan has coached for quite a few years now and has found team success, both in track and in cross country. Is his application of the short to long theory optimal or ideal? I’m not sure as we don’t know his situation. While I do also feel the hills and 97% session might seem weird to do so close to the end of the year, it might work for his athletes, I can’t say for sure. It seems Ryan is a fan of doing speed work right away in training. How that progresses is up to the coach to decide. If the times mentioned are true, then his school’s talent level is not clearly high. Does the performance level indicate a coaches ability? Or would a better measure be getting the most out of the kids they have to work with?

I recall my first year coaching track a decade ago, and I used a short to long progression and the first week I have half the group with strained hip flexors from too much strength endurance A runs. It was a lesson I learned and adapted from over time. My short to long ideas are much different now as I have learned what tolerances the athletes I see are able to handle. As coaches, especially youth level, it’s an ever changing dynamic as talent cycles year after year.

I know Ryan’s book is a compilation of ideas and theories from many top names in elite sprint coaching throughout the world. As I understand it, it will be a large volume showcasing coaches ideas. It is true Ryan coached Sisson, and another girl at the same time who went on to run for Arkansas (name slips my mind at the moment). He had two of the top distance girls in the US. Few coaches have this opportunity, especially at a smaller school. I can attest to this as I had a high level hurdle talent show up in my school one year (placing 3rd in Missouri state finals in 300mH as a 10th grader) and 2 years later won New Balance indoors and after this past week sits a top the NCAA 60mH list. Will I see a talent like him again? Not sure. I’ve had a bunch of guys run low 15s, but how many sub 14 hurdlers does a coach get in a career? In my area/state, there has only been a handful go that fast. I admit I was smart enough from years of error (and I made plenty of errors with him as well) doing short to long that I was able to apply short to long to his hurdle training. I keep my programs simple as it’s easy to control the variables that way. Sure some coaches might drop jump into sprints, I choose not to, as I’m sure most familiar with this site would feel the same.

I can speak to Ryan’s passion for coaching and success in the sport, as his seminar was an incredible line up of speakers, and has a history of bringing in the top names to present.

In my coaching and consulting experience, specifically as they relate to my knowledge of what occurs at the pro versus college, college level relative to what was done at the high school level, or more simply, what was done at point B relative to what was done at point A (in reference to younger stages of preparation), perhaps as significant as anything is the failure to achieve smooth transitions between the two.

In the court of intellectual honestly…regardless if what was done during high school (or point A) was lacking or phenomenal, if what the college coach (or point B) has planned is lacking or phenomenal, or any combination…it is the college (or point B) coaches responsibility to mitigate the differential between the two, at least initially, in order to ensure the smooth progression moving forward.

Those of us here, particularly those who have long experience in assimilating Charlie’s methods, know that Charlie’s work bodes extraordinarily well in this court of intellectual honesty by way of real world success . We also know, however, that every single situation is unique unto itself and thus must be treated as such.

Short to long, for example, sells itself for a variety of reasons; however, the question is- what were the athletes doing prior. In this way, if short to long is selected as the approach it is critical to account for the work done prior and then introduce any “buffering agents” required to mitigate the differential.

In this way, I have utilized various tempo and extensive power speed drills (over 30+ meters) as an intermediary between what athletes have done most recently with some other coach and what I’m going to have them perform by way of the hill or sled work in the GPP .

This has essentially proved flawless dating back to 2003 when I first began to practice methods highly influenced by Charlie with sprinters and other athletes.

//youtu.be/B_Un1Rd3pJs

James, interested in your buffering model to transition to an S-L based GPP. I can see the value for athletes moving from another type of coaching regime. Potentially for runners who are fit but not sprinting tuned. For example young athletes coming off winter xc, sportspeople transitioning from another sport and so on.

Power speed drills I understand.
Tempo : Is this the use of short tempo intervals (say 80-120m) with longer recoveries with a focus on technical correctness of sprinting mechanics.
Strength work : Do you use standard weight room exercises, with of course lower volumes and weights. Or more of a circuit training type of approach. This was the approach favoured in traditional coaching courses as get fit to train but wonder if this is out of date thinking.

Old Bloke, it’s always one of those “it depends” scenarios.

In terms of the power speed, I’ve actually applied short to long and long to short schemes to the actual power speed.

For example- Long to Short, over the course of a few weeks, would work from 40-60m down to 10m, begin with more extensive effort and gradually transition to more intensive effort.

I’ve used power speed with weight, on a hill, as well as on the flat.

As for the tempo, same S-L and L-S options exists and most simply a long to short tempo scheme working from extensive to intensive is self-explanatory.

Of course in the case of a “buffering agent” presuming the previous training experience is of lower intensity actions (ergo no alactic speed work) then we’ll clearly work of the them of L-S regardless if it’s power speed or tempo.

This L-S methodology applies equally well in terms of distance as it does duration as well as method of execution.

For example, Running A x 10 meters performed very smoothly and relaxed yet with the intent to make as many contacts with the ground as possible- moving very slowly horizontally (strength endurance A similarity) really gets the blood pumping yet its quite extensive/low intensity (due to the relaxed up/down action) and long in duration due to method of execution.

Alternatively, when performed as dynamically/intensively as possible, strictly with respect to the vertical stepping down and arm action without regard to horizontal speed, is much more intensive; and by intentionally slowing the horizontal movement, yet maintaining the aggressive up/down execution, the intensity climbs (up to the point in which the alactic threshold is breached).

The L-S and S-L methodologies have so many different applications and in my next book on Global Training Load Management readers will see how I’ve applied Charlie’s work to revolutionizing team and combat sport practice and overall preparation.

James: it’s always a pleasure to read your posts.

Thank you Stylee. I’ve recently made coaching education consulting available. Anyone who’s interested may contact me privately.

I just noticed that MTCCCA had some solid presenters there…page 7
http://www.mtccca.org/Newsletter/2015%20MTCCCA%20Newsletter.pdf

Including Boo.

In the last two nights, I have listened to him and Pfaff being interviewed. I loved listening to them talk about People and Training.
Pfaff on youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XL3p0fOg2ZE
Here is Boo from Sep. 2015 - http://robertsontrainingsystems.com/blog/physical-preparation-with-boo-schexnayder/
Here is Boo’s weight circuits for fitness training pdf that has yet to make the rounds I believe- https://www.thibodaux.com/Thibodaux/media/MedicalIcons/Medical%20Icons/Weight-Circuits-for-Fitness-Training-with-Boo-Schexnayder.pdf

He will be here in SACTO on Jan. 29-30. I plan to be there on the 30th for sure.
https://www.pausatf.org/coaches/track-field-superclinic/

Welcome to the Forum RB.

Very similar to lsu circuits.Body Building.pdf (7 KB)

Originally Posted by bantazmo
Into the fray, I go. I have read through each of the posts on the thread, and I think a couple of things need to be cleared up. First Charlie Francis is on the Mt. Rushmore of great track and field coaches. Better yet he is one of the tallest Redwoods in the vast forest of human performances. His branches and roots connected to many of the past and current coaching greats still influencing the world of track and field. As many of you might or might not be aware of until taking on the bucket list item of writing the Sprinter’s Compendium three years ago I was exclusively influenced by Clyde Hart (long to short) and few others. However, since traveling on this adventure and hearing from so many great coaches who have contributed I wasn’t entirely aware or could speak in any depth about Charlie’s ideas or the short to long system. Reading, studying and even buying many Charlie’s books here along with Mike’s it opened my eyes up to the concept of comparing and contrasting different methods or philosophies of training. I want to give coaches options that best fit what they believe and works with the type of athlete they might have or will have in the future. Charlie, Pfaff, Winckler, Anderson, and Burris have all been a huge influence on coaching in general. Writing the book has been one of the most rewarding aspects of my life as an adult because it had forced me to consider different methods and adopt principles that I was completely ignorant of before I started the journey. We are up to 44 contributors who have answered questions for the book. Many who frequent the Charlie Francis Community. Last winter I had the distinct honor to be president of the Missouri Track and Cross Country Coach’s Association (MTCCCA). In this clinic, I had the goal of bringing great minds from around the country to present on different topics. My friend Nick Buckvar and I thought it would be great to use our presentation as a compare and contrast on the two separate ideas not strictly a cut and paste program. At Central, we use more a concurrent philosophy, but the direction we take the sprinters is athlete dependent. The presentation itself provided the greatest post clinic conversation we have ever had from our conference because depending on what side you sit regarding training it forced you to consider the value of the other side.

As a coach, I use different systems depending on the talent of my athletes. Most of the time my sprinters are quick twitch oxidative. Which means their biology is geared more toward the 200/400 or even 400/800. However, if I have a sprinter that is neural and quick twitch type non-oxidative than we use a short to long system and even though most of these athletes are not world class or DI products. I pride myself on the progress of the sprinters. I do not coach the boy’s team. That team is still coached by Steve Warren who has been there since 1978. I do coach many the kiddos in the offseason and proud to say those boys who trained did very well this season. My philosophy as a head coach has changed in the last five years too. In the past, I would hoard all the best athletes on our team, and our sprints were very strong for Missouri. However, as I have matured, I realized this was not the best method to build a team or keep assistant coaches. We now have a much better overall team, and I believe we have done a better job pushing our athletes into the best events for them and not just to make me look good as a sprint coach. However, for our level, we have still won numerous sprint medals at our state championship and qualifiers to the state meet. This year we medaled in the 300LH, 400, 800, 4x200, and 4x800.

What has not changed is my initial reason for becoming a coach in the first place. My goal is to take athletes from being average to great because most of the kids we get are average. So, if it were about creating All-Americans, then I would be exclusively a club coach or private coach. We did have a large club team, but as the coaches including myself got married and had children, you have to make time for them. It was brought up to look at athletic.net for our stats. In Missouri the largest database for performances is mo.milesplit.com. However, I have been coaching since 2003, and I can share with you the best times since then if you would like to see them and get the complete picture. Someone mentioned about the distance girls at our school and yes Emily Sisson was on our team with another college All-American Diane Robinson. When I took over both of their training in their junior year, they ran massive personal records. I had the pleasure of coaching Emily exclusively for six months running a personal best in the 800, 1600, and 3200. Her father coached her from the summer after that season until she went to Providence two years later. Diane ran personal records in the 800(split), 1600, 3200, and 5000 in XC the next year. They were both teammates with Kathleen Thompson and Lauren Johnson. One being a captain for KU xc and the other running as a walk-on for Baylor. I have been blessed to be a part of 48 kids going on to college joining numerous teams and sports. Including this year. I am proud of my elite kids but also proud of kids who start out running a 1:19 in the 400 and by the time they are a senior running a 60 point. How many coaches could get a kid to buy into the process over four years to scratch and claw for those improvements? Same for the 100-meter sprinter who transfers from one school running a 14.8hh to a 13.3ish fat in her senior year. Those are things I am proud of as a frustrated sprinter who could not stay healthy his entire career growing up. In seven years we have only had one hamstring pull, and I believe we have built a system that can help other coaches.

I took over the girls program in 2003 to give the female athletes a chance to express themselves through sport and to know that it is cool to be athletic. Our school had no such culture for female athletics. The only woman’s sport that had success was swimming due to having a district-sponsored club that trained kids all year round since the age of 8. Our school only has 1264 kids as of last year we are about 80 schools bigger than us in a given year in our state alone. We live in an affluent area 14 miles outside of the city of St. Louis and have the most diverse school in the state which includes kids from every continent on the planet without penguins.  We have one of the largest Indian, Jewish, Middle Eastern, and Asian populations in the entire state. A number of these kiddos are ESOL. Culturally many these kids especially female do not take up high school athletics to focus on other things that interest them which makes our school a neat and beautiful place. We also have 100 kids that are severely physically and mentally challenged as we are the center to educate these young people out of our four districts high school. In St. Louis soccer is king and girls’ soccer is in the same season as girls track. During the woman’s World Cup St. Louis Missouri had the highest viewership of any place in the USA. We have the largest number of private schools per metro area outside of Boston. Those schools recruit heavily from the affluent areas and up to 30% of our area population are at private schools mostly for playing sports. We don’t have an indoor track within 100 miles of the St. Louis suburbs. We don’t have an indoor track season which can make winter training difficult most winters due inclement weather conditions. This winter was fantastic, and we were able to take advantage by getting outside more than usual. I share this to give you a complete picture of our environment. I have been coaching at Central since 2002 and the head girls track coach since 2003. I coached football until the fall of 2008 until I had an opportunity to coach girls xc which gave me a chance to train my kiddos all year round. I have the greatest job in the world. I wake up every day excited about the opportunity to reach and teach young people. The Sprinter’s Compendium is not a paint by numbers book. Instead, it is more a cookbook with a number of delicious options for a coach to try as they work with athletes of different levels, ability, and focus. I promise it will be a nice addition to have in your coaching library because of all the contrasting views and ideas that have been shared by great people.

I welcome any positive correspondence here as a chance to continue to learn in both directions and bounce ideas. Thanks for reading I look forward to future conversations here feel free to ask me if I can help. I do hope you know I appreciate strong opinions and passionate people.

You have given your bio, inadvertandly defended that you made a presentation without making any acknowledgment of Charlie’s contribution towards your work and now you wish to advertise your book to my site and followers because Charlie and I have made the site available to the public.
Fascinating.
A rule was put into place 16 years ago to keep advertising off the site to maintain the integrity of the information.
That fact changes this site from almost every training site I see out there including sites many people take part of because how else could that site exist. Not on the merits of the quality of their info that is for sure.
This fact keeps a life time of work of Coach Charlie Francis based on his results which have been difficult and continue to be difficult to refute
Drugs or not.
Cut and paste away but I am not really interested in advertising on your behalf as I have turned others away from this site whom have had a great contribution towards the sport.
Failing the simple test of acknowledging another contribution towards your development is unnecessary and shows tremendous disrespect for people and the sport I continue to make a contribution towards.
Results matter but people matter more and that’s always been the spirit of how this training has been created.
It was a short ending of Charlie’s career that might have turned out very differently had he had been coached by someone like himself in the early stages of his development. He rarely spoke of this fact but it was behind his desire and passion for different

By no means trying to advertise. Just trying to explain where my development and search for knowledge has taken me. As I stated on the thread I bow down to Charlie and what he has done as a coach along with his influence on every coach today in the sprint world. We have all been very lucky to have Charlie to help us achieve greatness. I finished reading Speed Trap in a few short days years ago and literally watch 9.79 on Netflix every month.

I actually came across the thread because individuals were not being very kind. A long time ago I wrote an article about how much your husband helped my training in the later parts of my season.

The blog is here and was posted in 2012 http://elitetrack.com/blogs-details-7088/.

I also talk about Charlie on http://www.theathletesummit.com/banta/ at 34:45 and talk about his ten day taper. World Speed Summit with Tyrone Edge I discuss Charlie and his influence too.