Michigan Madness

So I guess we can assume from these statements that Mannie had NSCA position papers and other such materials, in complete contrast to sHIT concepts, all around his weight room for his athletes to read? This, so his athletes could “make rational, educated decisions” regarding their training. I have so much respect for him now since I know he is opposed to “individuals who are firmly entrenched in their thinking one way or the other”. That description sure sounds like somebody with the initials KM.

It’s quite pathetic that someone could continue in this way for so long and that you know a number of players at MSU(of course we know it’s not the case now), UM, and PSU truly know what they are doing can’t be the best option for them. Yet the coach who makes a good living to train them is doing a much less effective job than if a few of the players got together and formed some type of of semi-organized plan based solely upon their collective high school experiences. Most semi-organized plans would still be far more effective than a sHIT “program”.

I thought most HIT guys were machine based. Is this not true? HIT guys squat like this Leistner fellow, it looks like he is doing clusters since he rests about 20 seconds between each rep.

It seems that there are diffrent extremes of HIT guys, the worst being open chain exercises to 1 set of failure. There are also guys who preach HIT method, but ground based training.

My school has a HIT guy who helped coach 2 big time football programs (1 pro, 1 college in PA) and it was definitely a slightly modified version from what is considered “normal HIT.” There were free weight exercises, but they were done HIT style. Generally it was 1 warm-up set of 6-8 (literally 1 set, it may be the bar or 135 or whatever, definitely not enough) then 2 sets to failure of 6-8 reps. There were exercises done immediately after each sets, including manual chest flies after bench and partner resisted push-ups after that, generally for around 10 reps. You then rested a couple minutes and did your next set. This never changed and was done every workout. Legs were done the same, but leg press was favored over squat (you could do whatever you wanted though). Other than these 2 exercises, the others also were to failure, but generally 1 set of 10-12 reps. Machines and free weights are used about equally, it depends on your “preference” as they say.

Does anyone have copies of or examples of the programs used by Penn State or Michigan? I am curious to know if they incorporate any free weight movements such as squats, DL…or is it all machines…school like Michigan and Penn state football teams have huge budgets for weight lifting equiptment so maybe they just buy these super dooper high tech machines cause they have to spend all the money :smiley:

HIT is what you get if you take ‘training harder is training better’ to its logical conclusion with weights.

It is not an easy programme, unless you are lazy and ‘fail’ without actually trying hard to lift the weight.

But then, you could tell a marathoner to run a marathon as fast as possible every day; that would be training really hard, so obviously it would make him really quick…

‘harder is better’ is an incredibly common fuckup among athletes in general. If you pick a club level athlete at random and you have 10 seconds to improve his results that year, then say ‘cut one session per week from what you’re doing now’.

Today on thewolverine.com site a pay-for- story was posted in regards to Lloyd Carr responding to recent criticism of the strength program by some fans, radio shows and internet messageboards. Threads like this are being seen elsewhere. His comments were, of course, a bunch of bs responses about a subject he clearly knows nothing about. If he did, he would not continue to employ a HITiot strength coach. This is the team that continues to do less with more virtually each year and I’ve believe for a long time that sorry sHIT program is largely responsible for this annual display of underachievement-this is sickening to fans like me.

I’m coming late to this game. However, I’m from Michigan and knew players on both the U of M and MSU teams, when they were both HIT oriented.

One one occasion, a very prominent player from MSU told me that anyone who wanted to go pro had to train “in secret” on a decent program, because Mannie’s stuff wasn’t cutting it. A wrestler from MSU told me that their strength program was pathetic, and that his high school wrestling coach was far better at conditioning and strengthening his wrestlers than Mannie was.

There’s a vast old boy network among HIT coaches and supporters. This prevents many teams from upgrading their S&C programs to reflect the needs of today’s athlete.

That’s the problem in the Pro ranks too. who will speak out that the Emperor has no clothes?
This is so fundamentally inept that it’s incredible that it ever got a toehold anywhere.
By extention, let’s improve sprint performance with a new sprint version called Sprint HIT- or SHIT for short. One all-out sprint till you drop every day to inprove.

I like it!
“What approach are you using in your training?”
“SHIT!”
“Really? And how is it going?”
“SHIT!!”

One word, so many meanings…

Saves a lot of discussion when the method and the result are the same. Of course, if you trained like SHIT, who’d talk to you anyway?

I didn’t think of it this way, SHIT!

That’s the problem in the Pro ranks too. who will speak out that the Emperor has no clothes?

T.O., but only against his employer and QB.

I currently train at MSU and I have heard some of the weight programs that the current and former players (some are now in the nfl) and I had to laugh. I must admit for the longest time I could not figure out why I was not getting stronger or faster until I started training under someone else. These individuals taught me how to run (and lift) the same way that the SEC (mostly Mississippi State Univ.) and Pac-10 (mostly USC and UCLA). This happened to me a few years ago. Dont get me wrong, I love being a spartan (hate michigan), but I have to agree with all of your threads that hit must go.

TO is too much of a crybaby. He cry’s over the littliest things! It’s too bad though. One of the best receivers I’ve seen except he doesn’t quite yet have the spiderman qualities of Jerry Rice (who rarely dropped an excellent thrown ball).

I see TO fitting in really good with the Atlanta Falcons as long as he can keep his mouth shut. I believe he is 32 years old and only has 4-5 good years left. It’s not the endzone celebrations that piss his teamates off its his continual trash talking of his own quarterback! I.e. Jeff Garcia, Donovan McNabb.

I watched Michigan’s defense dominate Notre Dame last Saturday. I have not seen this kind of explosiveness from Michigan in many years. Does anyone know if Michigan dropped the HIT program? I know it was quoted that Carr wanted everyone to lose weight to get quicker…but nothing was stated how they ran their S & C. Perhaps they went real heavy with low reps? Anyone on the inside know anything about this?

A few things I do know and a few that I’ve heard only rumors about. The s and c side of things was focused upon more this off season than ever before- 7 and 5 seasons have a way of doing that for you. Rather than give the players nutritional advice of eating as much pizza and pop tarts as possible to bulk up(not kidding on this one), the team is finally being told to keep their bodyweights in check and being given pretty solid nutrional advice after years of bad advice from Gittleson-this despite employing a team nutritionist for years.

Though the players are(I’ve been told) to monitor their bodyweights, there have been no monitoring of body composition-okay but could be better.

Many players have lost weight-usually a good thing. No doubt bodyfat but also at the expense of some muscle mass primarily due to their archaic method of weight loss and “speed development” of running (an average distance) of 3.5 mile runs on the nearby golf course-that’s right everybody, 300 lb. linemen included. This method was employed despite the fact that most conditioning programs even in the 20th century did not involve such madness for D1 programs.

It has been rumored that the team actully utiilized some true speed development/plyo training this off season but that has not been confirmed. If so, it could help to explain why the distance runs were not as big a negative factor in slowing the whole team down. There has also been a change of philosophy defensively by new D coordinator Ron English of being more aggressive and making the game plan simpler for the players. Former coordinator Jim Herrmann(now l.b. coach for the Jets) was a super schemer-gave players too many reads, assigments preventing them from reacting defensively and instead made them slow to move and adjust to offensive schemes.

It was asked yesterday on a UM fan website, if the " s and c haters" were now satisified and had more faith in the program?( given the stated changes that have been made and of course, primarily, because the team has started the season 4-0 crushing ND on the way to a #6 ranking). Many people said no. We are certainly pleased that changes have been made but it shows that extreme changes were needed long ago. Why is this “cutting edge” info of keeping your weight down just now reaching UM s and c? Why is there not a system in place to frequently monitor(by the team) bodyweights and body composition? They have had issues before where they have had to ask 4th and 5th year seniors to cut significant bodyweight before their senior years, why not keep them from every getting to that point? Don’t let it happen and then you don’t have to go back and make corrections to something that could have been prevented?

It was also pointed out how poorly UM players perform at the combines in terms of verticals, slj, and 40y dash times, particularly when compared to fellow big ten rival Iowa-a team that is unable to recruit, on average, the type of quality athletes that UM can yet they are full developing their guys athletic potentials(largely attributed to Chris Doyle-Iowa’s outstanding strength coach).

I pointed out that given the level of recruits that come to UM, and though generally pleased with the direction the program has taken this year, there is a big difference between getting MORE out of your players than in the past(this year) and actually optimizing the performance of your players(where we should be every year).

With regards to HIT protocols I’ve heard that MIGHT have been some changes to MORE of a free weight protocol but I have doubts about this due to the stubborness and the research avoiding HIT proponent-Gittleson. I just don’t know. In the past UM guys would bench but not squat(leg press) and “dangerous lifts”(I am quoting here) like cleans are strictly forbidden. I am unsure of the changes, if any, to the HIT protocol. Hope this helps to some degree.

The one glaring example I can think of is the excellent HS sprinter who got into a sHIT program, and in 4 years of ‘Michigan Madness’ (M or MS?) got 6 tenths slower, then went with an Olympic lifting and bench program and got 7 tenths faster in one year. Is this just a coincidence?

Charlie, do you have any idea who the sprinter was?

Yes I do, as a matter of fact (just can’t remember if it was Mich or Mich State. I tuned out once sHIT was mentioned). Someone on the board might wish to clarify.

Is it the same guy that No. 2 started this thread about-post one of the thread that is? If it’s that guy, I believe his first name was Nathan(?) but I don’t recall the last name-if, in fact, that’s the guy you are referring to. If the same guy, I seem to remember him being from B.C. Also, if again it’s the same sprinter, he did attend Michigan.