Horcoff played collegiate hockey at Michigan State.
Marketing is key since many great coaches/trainers leave for greener pastures. I advise all coaches that are frustrated to get more into the business end of things.
Mike Woicik is the S&C coach for the New England Patriots. He has been with the Dallas Cowboys (where he got three Super Bowl rings with Jimmy Johnson), the New Orleans Saints (under “Iron Mike” Ditka), and New England Patriots (where he has picked up three more Super Bowl rings with Bill Belichick).
I recall Al Vermeil stating the best coaches are the one’s who don’t go around telling others how good they are!
Marketing is apart of the ‘profession’ today, though.
Quik what is going on!..not sure if anyone saw this little blur on Penn State but claims comparing his program to HIT is unfair…
http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive/2005/03/03-21-05tdc/03-21-05dsports-08.asp
Maybe, but one of the key topics in this thread is the discussion of HIT as it relates to football, I believe.
From your link above,
“For those fans, Paul Harrison offers some insight. Harrison, head strength and conditioning coach at Penn State, is in charge of every team sport’s strength and conditioning program, with the exception of football.”
Yes, this a key advantage if you are already with a major sports teams like the NFL. It is in your best interest that people don’t know what you are doing (as long as you keep getting employment) so that you can keep your secrets until you retire; at which point it, you can share your secrets to get some recognition and further employment.
Like the Patriots current S & C coach. If he tells everybody what got his team to the Superbowl, then you will get numerous copycats. Nebraska did this and they are no longer winning championships. In Nebraska’s case, I don’t know if they were going and advertising in the 90’s but they sure were not hiding what they were doing. This lead to many copycats in college football trying to somewhat duplicate or rather integrate the free wts and OL more. Look it how long it was before the Russians and Eastern Bloc programs made there way to the West and even know 95% of todays programs are still in the dark with such things as; Vertical Integration, priororitizating speed/wts/tempo/etc into what the sport requires.
I know of last 2 guys that had more talent in there right pinky finger then what Horcoff had. The difference was that Horcoff was a hard working dedicated athlete and he had connections. 1 of the guys that didn’t make it was Craig Swanson, this guy in grade 11 could throw the Javelin 50 meters with 3 steps, bad technique and showed up when he felt like it (we didn’t really have a highschool track coach, in other words the coach had no idea of what he was teaching). If you did a search with his name, hockey, and the City of Castlegar you will see how many goals and points this guy piled up earlier in his career. It’s just to bad he turned out to be a pot head.
I wonder how many HIT guys can post a resume like this.
Here is a little info on the Atlanta Falcons S & C.
Al Vermeil mentioned him at the Vancouver seminar.
From, http://www.atlantafalcons.com/team/coachbio.jsp?id=1939
Al Miller, a member of the inaugural USA Strength and Conditioning 2003 Hall of Fame class, enters his 20th season as a coach in the NFL and his eighth as strength and conditioning coach of the Falcons.
In his role with the Falcons, Miller develops and implements the team’s workout program which is tailored to the individual needs of each Falcons player. It is this attention and dedication that has been one of the biggest factors in helping limit the number of serious injuries players incur throughout the season.
In his previous 19 years of coaching at the NFL level, which has also included stops with Denver (1985-92) and the New York Giants (1993-96), Miller’s strength and conditioning programs have been crucial building blocks for the foundation of four Super Bowl teams, including one in Atlanta.
He received the ultimate compliment when he was inducted into the Hall of Fame at Northeast Louisiana in 1992 for his exploits as a wide receiver.
Miller earned his Master’s degree from Louisiana Tech in 1974.
Strength and Conditioning, Atlanta Falcons - 1997-present
2005 - Atlanta wins Superbowl 37-34 over the
Indianapolis Colts?
2004 - Atlanta 11-5 win division and make the NFC championship game.
2002 - Atlanta 9-6 make to the divisional playoffs.
1999 - Superbowl XXXIII Jan. 31, 1999 Denver 34, Atlanta 19
Strength and Conditioning, New York Giants - 1993-96
1993 - N.Y. Giants 11-5 .Make Divisional Playoffs.
1994 - N.Y. Giants 9-7 .Green Bay/Detroit/Chicago all end up at 9-7. Should have made the playoffs as a wildcard but, “Chicago was third Wild Card based on better record against common opponents (4-4) than N.Y. Giants (3-5)”
Strength and Conditioning, Denver Broncos - 1984-92
1991 - Denver Wins Division at 12-4. Make it to the AFC championship and lose to Buffalo by 3 points.
1990 - Superbowl XXIV Jan. 28, 1990 San Francisco 55, Denver 10
1988 - Superbowl XXII Jan. 31, 1988 Washington 42, Denver 10
1987 - Superbowl XXI Jan. 25, 1987 N.Y. Giants 39, Denver 20
1986 - Denver should have made playoffs at 11-5 but they lost out due to 2 other teams NY Jets/New England who were also 11-5. Meanwhile Clevelend sneaks in at 8-8 bc they won their division.
1985 - Denver Wins Division at 13-3. Make it to the divisional playoff and lose by 1 touchdown.
1984 - Denver makes playoffs at 9-7.
Super, good point, I have a couple of articles on from old NSCA strength journals 80’ on Al V…he is a smart dude…the HIT/nautilis crew must have shit themselves when he came on the scene! 
Also since Penn State beat Minnesota last week, I am sure the S and C coaches are sayin it is cause of HIT babay!!! :eek:
The thing is it doesn’t affect them because they truely belive that what they are doing is the best thing to do. People who use HIT methods arn’t sitting around going… “you know what our methods are inferior but we are going to keep using them anyway”. It would be easy for them to switch to more sports specific methods if they thought it really had benefit… the problem is that the dialogue between us and them is not influential enough to persuade them to sit back and make the realisation that something in thier philosophy is wrong. We need to be more persuasive by communicating the ways in which HIT coaches can take thier current methodology and make it better by embracing some simple things they are overlooking.
Once you accept that there may be some small problems with your philosophy it opens the door for you to be look at other methods and seek out other people.
And the thing is that some HIT people are very very strong. For example, Dr Ken Leistner can has a 1RM squat of 555lbs to the floor at 161.5lbs at 53 years old! That is a 3.4 body weight squat! I have footage (see link below) of him squatting 407 (2.52bw) for 23 reps to the floor at 53.
www.down-right.co.uk/DrKen.wmv
Unfortunitly, I am snowed under with work right now but when I get time I’ll post a little article I am working on so you can all understand HIT more thorougly and therefore, by knowing your enemy be better equipped to help them see the problems they create for themselves.
In the mean time keep up the discussion.
TC
And the thing is that some HIT people are very very strong. For example, Dr Ken Leistner can has a 1RM squat of 555lbs to the floor at 161.5lbs at 53 years old! That is a 3.4 body weight squat! I have footage (see link below) of him squatting 407 (2.52bw) for 23 reps to the floor at 53.
Are you 100% sure Leistner is HIT, i am not that is why i am asking. But, i have seen his articles in Milo in the past and he didn’t appear to be HIT. I could be wrong.
tc0710…very good points…that guy in the video is impressive! One thing I would question is that I think there will always be exceptions to all training programs, there is always that guy who is a freak…but for coaches (in my opinion) it should be their responsibility to research what is out there and understand (or try to 
) what is working best for the majority of people. Meaning what methods work best (exercises, reps scheme, when to apply it ect…)…I think, Coaches much like doctors should try to stay on top of their profession and always be willing to learn more…unfortunately there is always new crap that comes out and slows progress but I guess Tony Little has to make a living too! I like what you said about communication with coaches…that is one reason why think russians could produce such great athletes in the past, their coaches would all communicate with one another, they were not competing but rather putting their ideas and philosophies together to try and create the best athletes they could with the most reliable efficient program…just my opinions…peace
Dr Ken worked with Arthur Jones, he wrote The Steel Tip and articles for Cyberpump. He is HIT but just not as you know it. This will be covered in my article.
ASD123 Yes ken is a freak but he trains a lot of other freaks for example his 2 adopted sons (no blood relation) have the following numbers:
GREG ROMAN - Foster son of Dr. Ken Leistner. Former 5’8" 235 lb noseguard for John Carroll
Trains 2 days per week, for a total of 9 exercises per workout.
Trap bar deadlifts (note no Olympic bars): 455lbs x20
Squatted 515lbs x13 with no equipment.
1RM Bench Press - 475 lbs.
KEVIN TOLBERT - adopted son of Dr. Ken Leistner.
Was a 5’9" 220 pound running back at the
U.S. Naval Academy.
Ran a 4.5 40.
Performed 20 to 23 reps with 375 lbs and 15 x
405 lbs in the bench press at a bodyweight of
230 lbs.
Benched 510lbs in a legal, competitive style.
Performed 30 x 600 lbs in the barbell squat at
a bodyweight of 248 lbs.
My aim wasn’t to say HIT is good because it is fundamentally flawed but to help you to understand why they believe what they do. You can say all you like to them but they know cos they have seen it that “HIT works”.
The problem is that it works (when done right) but at the expense of other important aspects of training with regards to the athlete.
I have wondered this as well. He always comes off as pro-HIT, even says as much, in his articles but the material I’ve read is not really in keeping with traditional HIT protocols. Read so many of his articles in PL-USA. Granted there are some aspects of his training that might be considered somwhat HIT-like.
Is this the same Kevin Tolbert that is the asssistant s and c coach at UM to Gittleson? He is credited to having brought more of a speed influence to the “program” at UM. Obviously it’s not been enough to offset the disaster strength work of driving guys to vomiting that MG insists upon.
tc0710, thanks for the info, it is very interesting to see this guy and others he trained kicking ass in the weightroom! I remeber hearing about this guy training some football player who was attacked and injured real bad off the field, the guy is trying to make a comeback and Listner is training him (I think it was in Sports Illustrated), although I do remeber reading how he trained his guys with high intensity, he was using a lot of strongman training moves for this guy,( in one pic he had him doing deadlifts and cleans with an applon axel and huge tires on the bar) I did not think he was a HIT guy cause I thought that HIT was against movement such as these because of the “unecessary risk” on the joints and tissues. Mannie wrote this article http://www.exercisecertification.com/articles/mannieexplosion.html , on why explosive lifts were not necessary. In another article talking about a how Listner trained a guy named Frank Ferrara, they say, "From force of habit, though, he continued his brutal, grueling workouts with Ken Leistner, “Dr. Ken,” his players called him.
“The kind of workouts you’ll never see at a team complex,” Ferrara says, “because they don’t want to risk injury. Would they drag chains up and down the driveway? Would they do squats with heavy weight, or farmer’s walk or explosive lifting?”
Well, I don’t exactly know what some of these things are, but to me they connote only one thing. Pain. "…not sure what I am getting at here but I like Pioneer stated it would seem that Dr. Listner’s method are not going by what I thought HIT methods were based on…I am probably wrong but either way it is interesting stuff, any comment would be great, also I look forward to your article when you have time to post it, thanks
peace! 
It is amazing how KM would want to parade his ignorance by writing an article like that. Some people just don’t get it…
One thing that some of the Hitters have taken to is to perform multiple top/work sets instead of the traditional one set to failure method. So if many of them have come over to the way of thinking of the multiple set groups, is this an admission that, in fact, many of them had it wrong all along? I’m sure they would never admit to this. It seems as though some Hitters are not HIT at all, or at least less so. I also love the way Mannie, who by the reports I heard was relieved from working directly with MSU football players, always cites the Drs. Micheli and Allman as opponents of high speed, olympic, ballistic or any non slow-controlled movement. So the opinions of a couple of ill-informed doctors are to fight agains the mountain of evidence to the contrary?
Is it a coincidence that the sHIT schools, as Charlie has pointed out in both his article on the subject and a large number of posts, lead the ncaa in football injuries. If your training should lead to injury prevention as much as enhanced performance output, it appears that HIT does just the opposite and actually leads to more injuries. I believe MSU has a fairly low injury rate over the last two seasons in contrast to the previous Mannie led athletic degeneration that used to take place there. Not a coincidence that these last two seasons have gone away from sHIT.
I think that is a different Tolbert mentioned above from the UM coach, but I’m not certain.
The Mannie stuff is beyond laughable. One former player told me that he went from a periodized approach in HS to MSU where is was told under no certain terms that squats, cleans, etc were strictly off limits (this was a couple of years ago). His HS program was put together by THE HEALTH TEACHER who lifted as a hobby. lol
The one part of the article that sticks out to me:
"This rebuttal to the NSCA Position Statement on Explosive Training was not written for individuals who are firmly entrenched in their thinking one way or the other, but rather for those who are seeking to compare training information in order to make a rational, educated decision. "
Anyone else choke on this little ironic nugget?