Max AND SubMax or Max VS. SubMax?

[QUOTE=popequique]

Before trying to understand the practical applications of max training everyday,variation,force absorbtion,or else I would be curious to discover how to achieve the “environment of positive adaptation” as often as possible,as perhaps this is the real limiting factor to any training recipe,regime,or foolishness…
Isn’t this exactly what Charlie means by the following paragraph:

“ A basic principle underlying all training is to bring only a fully regenerated athlete to each training element. The element is then performed at the highest quality possible. This results in athletes performing at very high levels and even achieving personal bests to the point of world record levels in the controlled environment of training.” (CFTS page 153)

[QUOTE]

I believe this is actually a point where Charlie and colbert differ, though they at first look the same, I believe they are two different parts of the spectrum. Charlie brings fully recovered athletes to the table which does cause positive adaptation. On the otherhand Colbert believes “I think” that positive adaptation can occur at various points and not necessarily where the body is fully recovered in the same sense as cfts. Therefore if one trains the body to reach positive adaptation at early points increasing the gains. That is just my take I may be way off.

I think it is much the same concept as muscle, but not necessarily accomplished the same way, in terms of bone density, which I may be making an illogical jump here, as I am not familiar with bone strength, but putting the bone under significant force will cause the bone to break down and regenerate into a stronger form is my understand, this my be off as i have barely a rudimentary understanding in this area, so increasing force applied to the bone through weight lifting and plyos upto a very high point will cause eventual benefits, but I am unsure of the recovery needed in this area.

In terms of the area of positive adaptation, I think this is a very fluid and hard to gauge area, you can make estimates of how an athlete will react to stimulous and at many levels the coach has little control of the athlete outside of training, until you get to the elite levels and maybe strong division 1 programs and a couple stellar lower level programs, so this confounds problems even more. Your training needs to mix and match with the level the athlete is at and the outside factors effecting the athlete, to make a truly optimal program I believe is not possible, I am not talking about a very very good program, even great or the top, but optimal, the optimal program would require more testing and too intrusive testing to even be possible. However a workout needs to be flexible enough to adapt to how a n athlete reacts to previous workouts, obviously one should have a fairly good idea how an athlete will react, but not perfect.

So positive adaption can occur at various points, charlie does this with full recovery, which causes positive adaption at high levels.

Colberts method may also give positive adaptions but at how high of levels?

Positive adaption and optimal adaption to me are two different states, and with optimal adaption usually not being obtainable, but very near it can be, and also optimal adaption may not alway be the goal depending on the area being worked on at the time, an overall view of the full program needs to be taken into account.

In most cases I would say no, but it also depends on what your working on and how great the weakness or strength is and fast and of what magnitude you can improve. For example if you have a stellar start but no top end speed well your going to want to work on top speed because getting .01 better at the start is going to do you shyt in comparision. However if you have a shyt start but good top end speed it might be debateable which to work on, obviously these are extreme examples, but it is just to demonstrate that it depends on the magnitude of change you can make.

James, all I ask is for you to make some type of template so we can see your views in action.

If you must just make up a random person with whatever variables you deem necessary, I would just like to see your approach in action. Thanks.

30 sec iso exterme lunge

130% squat overspeed concentric
3-5 min rest
25 lunge altitude drops 10 count hold
ice massage
repeat twice

russian jump lunge to a squat
2 dynamic 40% squat
3 min iso extreme lunge
repeat twice

im not going to explain what this mean at the moment as it has a lot of factors but i will entertain questions in the form of “why did you do this” simply to make it easier on me.

[QUOTE=james colbert][QUOTE=popequique]

30 sec iso exterme lunge

130% squat overspeed concentric
3-5 min rest
25 lunge altitude drops 10 count hold
ice massage
repeat twice

russian jump lunge to a squat
2 dynamic 40% squat
3 min iso extreme lunge
repeat twice

im not going to explain what this mean at the moment as it has a lot of factors but i will entertain questions in the form of “why did you do this” simply to make it easier on me.

What’s a 130% squat overspeed concentric? I don’t understand.

using 130% of ones max the weight is lowered and witha qualified spotter who understand your bar path the weight is lifted concnetrically at about 10% faster than normal lifting speed. its an assisted lift but the spotter is not simply lifting the weight off you the lifter must apply maximal effor to the bar.

Could you perhaps lay it out for a week so we could get a better understanding of where sprint and upper body work would be used?

Also what part of the season would this be used for? What types of assumptions are you making about this athlete?

A few points:
1: Adaptation always occurs during recovery but what constitutes recovery varies according to the demand.
2: Training to eliminate weakness goes only so far. eventually, once you see which weaknesses are intractable, you make progress by working your strengths. an example was Irins Szewinska. She was a poor starter, but concentration on speed, speed End, and Special End gave her WRs at 200 and 400m - and even at 100m,
which originally hadn’t seemed possible.
3: The plyos suggested above are extreme and are not compatible with the simultaneous execution of a full sprint program. We’ve discussed at length the shortfalls of serial adaptation/ classic periodization.
4: Be that as it may, I look forward to seeing a full integrated program for speed development, including all sprinting, with justification for all the components and how they can coexist.

lol im not going to do a week osrry im just not going to to that much work for a hypothetical situaion. but ill do my best with the other stuff. what i wrote up was only a segment i believe training the whole body everyday no back cheast splits here. i was acutally hoping u would ask me about the principles i applied instead of more examples. sprinting would b eused like a tool so there maybe weeks your on the track everyday and others your not on it at all. i believe in overspeed (charlie dont bit my head off) when done properly. but that too is gettin “up there” in ability a lot of other things need to be in place before doing this type of work. the main assumption with this athelte is that he can get his bod into the proper postion with the proper motor patterns for effecient movement.

How is a week example too much work? You post a dozen times a day. Surely you sprint or sprinted at some point just give a week of stuff you did.

It would be less work to write out than some of your diatribes above. But then, it’s much easier to talk in abstract principles than to apply them, or show how to apply them.

James, much like the Golgi tendon organ response can be overridden (up to a point), I think your assertion – that it is possible to do more CNS work than usually thought – may be correct. Our question is, how is this done? If you don’t know, just say so. If you do know, tell us how.

Couldn’t you just use weight releasers or maybe even reverse bands?

EDIT: Is this all that different from a forced rep (like they do in bbing)?

I got it right… I got it right :stuck_out_tongue: I understand it is a lot more specific than the simple general terms I used.

It is no surprise you are in favour of overspeed work as you seem to want the training as hard and above the normal human effort to get a supercompensation when competing. To use a couple of examples KK proposes for 400 training rather than overdistance (600’s) do overtime with long hills of 350m and 300 at race pace, rest 30 seconds then 150m as fast as possible.

Another method could be to wear a not too heavy weighted vest, am I right?

Don’t know if I agree with full body weights work everyday without some of them being ‘flushing’ days. Have you been watching Westside videos? I ask as I know Louie uses high volume lifts on ‘rest’ days as well as sled work for that purpose.

This ‘athlete’ what sport are they training for? Is it sprinting?

Just showing part of one days work really doesnt show what you are trying to accomplish.

The point I’m really concerned about is how this would fit into sprinting, I cant really tell from a partial of one days workout.

You dont have a sample anywhere of any sprint workout you do or you have created for someone?

Are you talking about sprinters here, or sprinting as just a supplementary tool that can be used by power athletes in general?

If you have such an athlete (i.e., proper body position, proper motor patterns and efficient movement), why do you need overspeed? Are you considering what this efficiency on its own could mean for such an athlete? If yes, how could the method of overspeed be used properly in this situation?

Ok,

Pakewi has got a good thread going here that is getting derailed by talking about James’ principles and methods.

Let’s keep this thread going as he intended and start an entire new thread dedicated to discussing James’ principles as he wishes.

I’ll start one in this section and we can go from there.