Macronutrient splitting

[Daniel_Martinez]

Keep things as simple as possible, but not simpler. -Einstein

[elars21]

What’s wrong with patting yourself on the back?

Anyways, I was just going along with the “theme” of this debate. Sorry you couldn’t see that. In reality neither Clemson or I should even be mentioned in the same sentence as Ali or Tyson. Ali’s the greatest and Iron Mike was just plain unbeatable, back in the day. We are members of an interent forum. I thought you could the sarcasm. Anyways I’m not the one who made this into a boxing analogy. Clemson did rememeber? Landing what he thougt were haymakers, but turned out to be love taps.

[lorien]

So, if I start my day with some carbs and proteins, followed by a protein and healthy fat meal a couple of hours later. Then, after a hard training session I take my recovery drink (after a normal or easy workout only protein) followed by a normal meal (C/P/F) later, and finally, have another protein and fat meal before bed time. Would this be macro splitting despite the normal dinner? In my book it would be (since the majority of meals would be split into C/P or P/F with only one being C/P/F), and surely no ketosis would/has occurred.

Perhaps a bad example (since it’s not black & white but grey), but I hardly think the aforementioned situation would result in a metabolic disaster; on the contrary, a simple nutritional strategy that would help me become lean without too much fuss.

Obviously an athlete with more energy demand and expenditure would need a different approach (marathon etc.), but for a high jumper it could be a good choice?

[elars21]

I don’t see any problem with that. Ketosis is basically when the body has to rely too heavily on fatty acids (instead of carbs) for it’s energy needs. Just as a guideline, if the workout was intense enough to require a simple simple sugar PWO drink, I would have carbs in both of those subsequent meals. This is all dependent on your insulin sensitivity (how you respond to carbs) and the energy demands of your training. The last line of your post touches on this. I’m not sure how demanding your trianing is but it certainly would be power-speed based with minimal endurance work.

[THEONE]

It looks like my cheerleading was not effective (maybe it’s because I was cheering “boma ye” instead of bombaye)… o well.
I had some hope that Clemson would put foward a better case for the value of macronutrient splitting.
I still can’t see the value in it. I grew up eating a typical “West Indian” diet wich has its fair share of protein, little fat, but it comes with a boat-load of carbs(complex however). I was always lean, my kin folk is lean, and my friends who ate the same way were also lean. I attending high school in Brooklyn NY, our football/soccer team was 80% Jamacans and the rest of the team was made up or guys from other small islands and everyone was lean. And I promise you, it would be hard to find a bunch of guys that could eat a bowl of rice or bread with these guys(the more stew and sauce the more rice).
If you want to see a huge population of people that are “lean” (few fatties) that don’t split their macronutrients see Asia. If you want to see a fair amount of people that a razor lean that don’t split macronutrients see the Carib.Islands.

[Daniel_Martinez]

@elars21

I don’t see any problem with that. Ketosis is basically when the body has to rely too heavily on fatty acids (instead of carbs) for it’s energy needs. Just as a guideline, if the workout was intense enough to require a simple simple sugar PWO drink, I would have carbs in both of those subsequent meals. This is all dependent on your insulin sensitivity (how you respond to carbs) and the energy demands of your training. The last line of your post touches on this. I’m not sure how demanding your trianing is but it certainly would be power-speed based with minimal endurance work.

Now, this is a more constructive thread.

[Daniel_Martinez]

@THEONE

It looks like my cheerleading was not effective (maybe it’s because I was cheering “boma ye” instead of bombaye)… o well.
I had some hope that Clemson would put foward a better case for the value of macronutrient splitting.
I still can’t see the value in it. I grew up eating a typical “West Indian” diet wich has its fair share of protein, little fat, but it comes with a boat-load of carbs(complex however). I was always lean, my kin folk is lean, and my friends who ate the same way were also lean. I attending high school in Brooklyn NY, our football/soccer team was 80% Jamacans and the rest of the team was made up or guys from other small islands and everyone was lean. And I promise you, it would be hard to find a bunch of guys that could eat a bowl of rice or bread with these guys(the more stew and sauce the more rice).
If you want to see a huge population of people that are “lean” (few fatties) that don’t split their macronutrients see Asia. If you want to see a fair amount of people that a razor lean that don’t split macronutrients see the Carib.Islands.

Granted, but given the population, you have to be more specific to needs. So with lazy american athletes, you may have to do some macronutrient splitting.

[mustang]

Thanks Elars. Just to let you know, I’m much leaner now at the age of 40 than I was when I was a college track athlete. I don’t sweat the food combos at all, eat every 2 hours, and enjoy plenty of Omega 3’s. However, the carbs in my post workout shake have ranged from 25g-200g and I never really noticed any difference.

[Palmtag]

@SpeedKills

Granted, but given the population, you have to be more specific to needs. So with lazy american athletes, you may have to do some macronutrient splitting.

I don’t think I quite understand the “lazy americans” quip… Aren’t we dealing with athletes here?

On a side note, I don’t understand the animosity that sprung up between Elars and Clemson. Elars, it’s food. You buy it. You cook it. You eat it. You don’t call people “childish” or “pathetic” just because they like to eat differently than you. Clemson was bein’ a bit big headed, though, but he knows a lot about nutrition. It sounds like macro-splitting is just one of he many methods that Clemson uses to scrape off the small %'s. That’s what regeneration is all about, isn’t it? Getting the extra hour of sleep. Drinking the post-workout shake. Watching what you eat and how you eat it? Maybe 1-2% differences individually, but if you practice them they add up.

[elars21]

@Palmtag

I don’t think I quite understand the “lazy americans” quip… Aren’t we dealing with athletes here?

On a side note, I don’t understand the animosity that sprung up between Elars and Clemson. Elars, it’s food. You buy it. You cook it. You eat it. You don’t call people “childish” or “pathetic” just because they like to eat differently than you. Clemson was bein’ a bit big headed, though, but he knows a lot about nutrition. It sounds like macro-splitting is just one of he many methods that Clemson uses to scrape off the small %'s. That’s what regeneration is all about, isn’t it? Getting the extra hour of sleep. Drinking the post-workout shake. Watching what you eat and how you eat it? Maybe 1-2% differences individually, but if you practice them they add up.

Scraping off the small %'s! It’s so clear to me now. Metabolic pathways, enzyme expression, hormonal status who needs that, we’re scraping off the small %'s!

I never said there was anything really wrong with this system. What I am saying is splitting your meals up is not in anyway superior to eating meals with protein, carbs, and fat.

[elars21]

Extra hour of sleep? Going from 6-7 will. 9-10 not so much.
Watching what you eat? Yes.
How you eat? I’m confused.

[elars21]

@mustang

Thanks Elars. Just to let you know, I’m much leaner now at the age of 40 than I was when I was a college track athlete. I don’t sweat the food combos at all, eat every 2 hours, and enjoy plenty of Omega 3’s. However, the carbs in my post workout shake have ranged from 25g-200g and I never really noticed any difference.

You would adjust the carb/calorie intake for the rest of the day, right? That is quite a disparity.

[Palmtag]

@elars21

Scraping off the small %'s! It’s so clear to me now. Metabolic pathways, enzyme expression, hormonal status who needs that, we’re scraping off the small %'s!

I never said there was anything really wrong with this system. What I am saying is splitting your meals up is not in anyway superior to eating meals with protein, carbs, and fat.

Your cynicism is duely noted. I’m glad that you appreciate what I have to say. And didn’t attempt to offend or attack me personally.

[elars21]

@Palmtag

Your cynicism is duely noted. I’m glad that you appreciate what I have to say. And didn’t attempt to offend or attack me personally.

That’s just how I do.

[Palmtag]

I do have a question, though. It’s on the topic of sugars/insulin, but probly not about macronutrient splitting.

After my long runs (1:20+) I usually make sure to eat right away. What kind of food would you eat if your sugar stores are pretty close to depletion? (Like after an endurance run like that). I usually have a banana+fruit+milk shake right after followed by a meat/fish meal an hour or so later. What kind of foods would be the best to restore my body as quickly as possible?

I’ll do some independant research and post my results so anyone else that’s interested can reference them. Now? I’ve got to go for an easy 8 miler

[elars21]

Try to find a good granola bar (firm/chewy) or oatmeal bar (soft) recipe. Oats, dried fruit, honey, maybe a few nuts. You can use apple sauce or yogurt in place of fats. I have my own personal recipe, but it has a lot more protein, a little more fat, and less quick energy carbs than what you would need in this situation.

[mustang]

Actually, I don’t make any adjustments. To be honest, I don’t count calories.

[Kruger]

@elars21

Here’s the cliff notes version of my argument.
This debate hinges on two points:

1. Carbohydrates effect on insulin
2. Insulin’s effect on fat storage

Low GI or carbs like steel cut oats (sorry you don’t own a copyright on them, I checked) do not cause much of an insulin response, because they raise blood glucose so slowly. That’s why they are good for sustained energy and satiety (Hey, I can’t assume anything at this point). Foods with a low glycemic load do not raise insulin much either because they raise blood glucose so little. Many other factors can effect insulin levels, clemson made a point about dairy. It is the INSULIN-LIKE growth factor contained in cow’s milk that is responsible for this, not carbohydrates. This effect would still be seen in low carb dairy products like cottage cheese or sour cream. Many factors affect insulin levels, not just carbohydrate consumption. Any time you eat, even a meal containing no carbs insulin levels will rise. Protein by itself is quite effective at raising insulin levels, particularly BCAA’s.

Even a small rise in insulin levels will stop will signal the body to stop lipolysis, a P+F meal combo is enough to accomplish this.The body wants to hang onto it’s fat. Dietary fat will preferentially be used for energy over stored fat. Of course dietary fat in excess of energy needs will be stored, and if energy needs are not body will be catabolized at an increased rate.

It was once believed that insulin increases fat storage by stimulating an enzyme named lipoprotein lipase. I presented a study that showed that decreasing insulin levels did not affect lipoprotein lipase activity to any degree. Fat is actually stored by acylation stimulation protein, which works completely independent of insulin. Insulin can no longer be broadly labeled as a storage hormone. It is just not that simple. Fat can be stored without insulin. Insulin may stimulate LPL, which makes more fatty acids from chylomicrons available for storage from, but so will consuming them through food.

The body will more readily store excess fat as adipose than excess carbs. Common sense should tell you this. If I recollect correctly it’s like 80% compared to 95%. This applies to good fats as well like Omega-3’s. This is why Omega-6/Omega-3 balance in meat varies widely by the diet of the animal.Grass fed beef will have much more Omega 3 concnetration than corn. It’s no coincidence that grass fed livestock ar also much leaner. The way Omega-3 fatty acids improve body composition is through the expression of these lipogenic enzymes. You simply can’t avoid dietary fat being stored, unless you are in a significant calorie deficit. Fatty acids acids are turned-over similar to amino acids. Instead of making futile attempts to stop this natural process we should try to control which fatty acids are stored. Improving balance of PUFA’s (more Omega-3/less Omega 6) in our fat will ultimately lead to improved body composition by effecting the lipogenic enzymes (LPL, ASP) and improving insulin sensitivity. If it helps you understand think of it as taking one step back and two forward. Although I don’t think it particularly fits this situation.

there is no question that macro splitting works

it just doesnt work any better than not splitting them hahah

one benefit though is that splitting carbs and fat eliminates a lot of energy dense foods, it also makes you think all day long and generally more aware of your food choices…

make anyone think about there diet more and they will be more conscious of food choices, eliminate chips ice cream take away etc from a diet and limit to meat and veges and you will get lean, not because of any magical benefit from the macro splitting though as there is no evidence for it