White bread with some protein will make me lean? White bread is junk no matter what.
I wouldn’t consume coconut oil (or any fat for that matter) with high GI carbs. I never once advocated any meals without protein.
In regards to the pub med abstract, I think it deals directly with the issue at hand. This type of stuff is very wordy.I am sorry you don’t understand it’s relevance. Let me help you out.
*Postprandial simply means after a meal.
*Octreocide is a drug that supresses the body’s production of growth hormone,
it also inhibits insulin production.
GIP and GLP-1 are the two hormones in the gut I mentioned in my post above.
*Lipoproteins are the structure which lipids (other than free fatty acids) are transported through the blood.
*Lipoprotein Lipase is an enzyme that, in adipose tissue, liberates lipids from the serum lipoproteins
*Let’s put it together, “markedly reducing” insulin doesn’t reduce the activity of LDL. This is important because many sources believe insulin is what stimulates LPL activity. However this is a case of correlation without causation. I think they are both caused by something else-consuming excessive of the wrong carbs at the wrong time. We all know that high GI carbs after a glycogen-depleting workout will be used to…well, restore that depleted glycogen, DUH!. But unfortunately as many fat kids today know, Madden is not exercise and the sugar in that 24 pack of Mountain Dew will in the liver, be converted into fatty acids which are transported as lipoproteins through the blood. This stimulates LPL activity which frees fatty acids from serum lipoproteins(cholymicrons) for storage in adipose tissue. The actual storage is done by Acylation Stimulation Protein which acts completely independent of insulin.
All fat is not the same. The Omega 3 fatty acids EPA and DHA found in fish oil stimulate lipid mobilization in adipose tissue and help to carry harmful low-density lipoproteins to the liver where they can be eliminated. That’s why I try to get a good portion of my fat from fish oil and flax. Also omega 3 and omega 6 balance has been getting a lot of pub recently. Basically high amounts of omega-6 in relation to omega 3 is bad news. We should aim for at least a 2:1 ratio maybe even 1:1. Oatmeal, the fattiest of grains is high in omega-6 fatty acids, and if you eat as much oats as I do, you’d better be getting your omega-3’s, preferable in the same meal as the omega-6’s.
If you ever wanna go a few rounds for real, just let me know. If we met in real life you certainly wouldn’t call me El Lardo. If you did, you’d be the one getting knocked out. That’s a fact. If you call 6’5 230 ripped lardo, I challenge you to post a current (as in today or hereafter) pic with someway of verifying the date . I’m going to post one in the next few days. In the meantime, come out swinging, and hopefully none of the posts in this thread will get “knocked out” I want to see you fight (more like weasel) your way out of this yourself.
The proof is in the puddin! What kind of results have your respective systems produced?
Watch this thread guys, creative arguments are fine; but when a moderator reports the thread it usually means things are slipping.
Thank you,
Rupert
CharlieFrancis.com
Paging Clemson to aisle six.
Here’s the cliff notes version of my argument.
This debate hinges on two points:
- Carbohydrates effect on insulin
- Insulin’s effect on fat storage
Low GI or carbs like steel cut oats (sorry you don’t own a copyright on them, I checked) do not cause much of an insulin response, because they raise blood glucose so slowly. That’s why they are good for sustained energy and satiety (Hey, I can’t assume anything at this point). Foods with a low glycemic load do not raise insulin much either because they raise blood glucose so little. Many other factors can effect insulin levels, clemson made a point about dairy. It is the INSULIN-LIKE growth factor contained in cow’s milk that is responsible for this, not carbohydrates. This effect would still be seen in low carb dairy products like cottage cheese or sour cream. Many factors affect insulin levels, not just carbohydrate consumption. Any time you eat, even a meal containing no carbs insulin levels will rise. Protein by itself is quite effective at raising insulin levels, particularly BCAA’s.
Even a small rise in insulin levels will stop will signal the body to stop lipolysis, a P+F meal combo is enough to accomplish this.The body wants to hang onto it’s fat. Dietary fat will preferentially be used for energy over stored fat. Of course dietary fat in excess of energy needs will be stored, and if energy needs are not body will be catabolized at an increased rate.
It was once believed that insulin increases fat storage by stimulating an enzyme named lipoprotein lipase. I presented a study that showed that decreasing insulin levels did not affect lipoprotein lipase activity to any degree. Fat is actually stored by acylation stimulation protein, which works completely independent of insulin. Insulin can no longer be broadly labeled as a storage hormone. It is just not that simple. Fat can be stored without insulin. Insulin may stimulate LPL, which makes more fatty acids from chylomicrons available for storage from, but so will consuming them through food.
The body will more readily store excess fat as adipose than excess carbs. Common sense should tell you this. If I recollect correctly it’s like 80% compared to 95%. This applies to good fats as well like Omega-3’s. This is why Omega-6/Omega-3 balance in meat varies widely by the diet of the animal.Grass fed beef will have much more Omega 3 concnetration than corn. It’s no coincidence that grass fed livestock ar also much leaner. The way Omega-3 fatty acids improve body composition is through the expression of these lipogenic enzymes. You simply can’t avoid dietary fat being stored, unless you are in a significant calorie deficit. Fatty acids acids are turned-over similar to amino acids. Instead of making futile attempts to stop this natural process we should try to control which fatty acids are stored. Improving balance of PUFA’s (more Omega-3/less Omega 6) in our fat will ultimately lead to improved body composition by effecting the lipogenic enzymes (LPL, ASP) and improving insulin sensitivity. If it helps you understand think of it as taking one step back and two forward. Although I don’t think it particularly fits this situation.
Elars,
I’m still trying to grasp the role insulin management plays in improving body composition so any help is appreciated.
How do you find and argument when you’re basically proposing the same things; low insulin levels exempt from post workout recovery?
Obviously you don’t need macro splitting if you have great genetics; however, it’s not bad either. Moreover, if you know what you are doing, you can easily add carbs to meals without gaining weight; the trick is to know what kind of C/P/F you’re consuming and keeping the overall meal-layout in check. Where is the problem?
It would be foolish to label every razor-lean athlete a result from macro splitting, that is just not the case. However, I also know for a fact that macro splitting works wonders for some people. It’s a matter of individual thresholds - just like in overall training.
Lorien,
What we are proposing is not the same at all. I find that a little insulting, actually. Basically you’re telling me I just wasted a good portion of my time, trying to sum up what I took two pages to write into half a sentence. not only that, but you also got what I was saying wrong. I did not say insulin levels should be kept “low”, I believe insulin should be kept at appropriate levels. Maintaining normal, healthy blood sugar levels means insulin keping insulin in a normal, healthy range. When insulin is “low” lipoprotein circulating in the blood increases by as much as 3x, and protein synthesis stops , and protein catabolism bregins. Because athletes metabolic rate are so much higher than sedentary people, and their demand for carbs is so much greater, they can reach a state of ketosis much quicker. This leads to a whole host of problems. Also I personally am not in favor of spiking insulin post-workout very often, I would keep this to a minimum. I would certainly not recommend it for breakfast, as some are advocting at T-mag. A simple sugar-protein drink should be looked at as a convenience (portability, faster absorption, easier to down) not as a necessity for recovery.
Mustang,
Insulin is anti-catabolic. It signals the body to stop using stored energy (glycogen,fat,muscle proteins) when there is excess energy (glucose) in the blood. Insulin is also is anabolic meaning it stimulates the corresponding reverse pathways.The enzymes that store fat operate the same with or without insulin. Insulin can increase the availability of fatty acids to this enzyme, but so does dietary fat consumption. From the last sentence it should be clear that the main factor in ALL of this is energy balance. Calorie intake above energy expenditure (including muscle repair/growth) will be stored as fat.
Clemson?
Come out and play!
Rupert! Don King doesn’t like me posting unless he gets his HBO deal!
I am nervous about the match up with elars21…being 6’5" 230 with a 4:25 aerobic system!
In all honesty guys like Julio Franco can be in their 40s and be lean from great genetics…mutiple training units per day will make use of thermodynamics but using a general emphasis on reducing to simple combos of protein with one primary macronutrient is clearly an effective means to keeping bodyfat low.
What the hell do you mean a 4:25 aerobic system? That won’t even get you to state in the mile in high school, and that’s my 1500m time! Wow, I’m a decent all-around athlete, you got me. Maybe I should consider becoming a decathlete. Oh wait I am. But where’s this relevant to this debate? Glad to see you read my other posts. The strawman is strong in with this one! Be a man defend yourself or admit you’re wrong.
Genetics is a complete copout. My brother is two years younger than me and weighs 300 pounds and can barely bench press a 45lb bar. I was obese until I got to sixth grade. I didn’t make the basketball team, because I was fat and slow. . I lost a lot of weight, but was still a crappy athlete. Since then I’ve always sought to be the best athlete I could. Problem was I didn’t know where to learn. It took me several years, but I have learned the right way to train, mostly here at this site. I have made exponential improvements in all aspects of performance since. But my training history and stats are irrelevant to this debate.
Not once throughout this have I personally insulted to. I could have you’ve given me plenty of ammo. I’m above that. Now instead of braqging about all the athletes you’ve made, which would be impossible and a waste of my time for me to verify, why don’t you dispute my actual post.
That’s a great conclusion now all you need is an introduction and a body paragraphs to support it.
What about carb and calorie cycling depending upon the days energy needs? Personally I find this works very well.
I agree, but for me personally everyday is pretty much the same in terms of energy needs. Tempo days are not taxing on the CNS, but they can be just as demanding or more demanding on the other systems.
Clemson, boma ye!
I’m Ali in this fight. Let’s get that straight right now.
Maybe you can change history, but Clemson is the old vet on this board. Also, at 6’5" 230 lb how could you not be George in this saga?
Clemson, boma ye! Clemson, boma ye!
Its BOMBAYE…and unless something comes really fast out of this thread…its bombaye macronutrient splitting…
Rupert
CharlieFrancis.com
Truth be told, I’m more similar to Tyson in his prime.
You don’t have to pat yourself on the back, you’ve made a decent argument. Clemson knows what his rep is here and he’s just saying he’s going to go with what is working for him. When you blur the lines for what athletes are allowed to eat and for what they aren’t allowed to eat, sometimes you run into problems. Macronutrient splitting simplifies the process.