low bar squat

[Goose232]

@james_colbert

i think youve seen what has been done with a wide stance and squating ability and assumed that strength = speed (excuse my assumption) and this is actually correct, but what kind of strength. there is speed strength, strength speed, explosive strength, isometric strength, limit strength, flexability endurance, starting strenght ect ect. and each one is different and the training of each one has a different effect on the neurology. you also have to take into consideration motor learning, the motor learning that you want to take place to be an athletic individual does not occur when your feet are 6 feet apart. it completly changes the nature of the movement. hell it isnt even the same movement. you can call it a squat but its has almost nothing to do with a olmpic squat. when are you going to vertical jump with your feet 6 feet apart or how about sprint.

this is what makes this type of discussion so difficult. this is basic stuff to me very basic but thats only because ive learned it a long time ago. what i take for granted as givens many of you dont even know about. so when i try to discuss higher topics like motor learning feedforward programing, or intermuscualr coordination alot of the things go over many of your heads because you dont have the foundation of knowledge. this is in no way a slight towards you or anyone else its just getting a little frustrating having to remember that most people dont even understand the concept of inhibitory interneurons, rate coding, or motor unit recruitment.

im glad youve had success with reactive glute ham raises. that should tell you something, something that you can apply to the rest of your training. all you have to do is understand what is going on when you perform the excercises. dont simply do an excercise see that it works but not understand why.

one last thing, the isos didnt work for you cause you didnt know what you were doing pure and simple. the excercise means nothing, how you perform it means everything. so saying you did it for a week and found no benefit shows a lack of understanding on your part. i can give you, nor can anyone give you a single excercise to make you improve. it is how you apply those excercises and how you apply them in tandom with other excercises. its all training, teaching your body to respond a certain way under certain conditions. strength is a learned quality, speed is a learned quality, explosiveness is a learned quality. saying you can feel if an excercise is benefiting you within a few days of doing it only shows ignorance on your part (again no offense, ignorance is a lack of knowledge not the inablity to aquire it).

James, when I did the iso lunges, I did them in the following manner;

The thigh was parallell. The heel of forward foot was “digging” into floor so as to recruit more hamstring contraction. The trail leg was as straight as I could get it. I also contracted hip flexor at front of trail leg as hard as possible.
This ofcourse forced my front leg and gluteal to contract very hard. So my front leg glutes and hams, and my trail leg hip-flexor were working very hard like opposing forces.
Whilst I was doing the exercise I could clearly understand the relationship between hip flexors oon right hip leg and hip extensors on left hip & leg. After this set, I took 2 minute rest and switched legs to right leg being in front. I believe this is the way you recommended to do them. I must admit the contraction was incredible. I had allready done something simmilar a few months earlier, but in a step up position with front foot on step rather than the lunge position. So I allready understood part of the relationship between one leg and the other leg, also hip-flexors on one side of hip and hip extensors on other side.
Your lunge version offered a more intense contraction than my step up version where-by step up position iso" is a bit risky to the knees any way.
I thought the iso-lunge was an awesome exercise. However, my legs had lost power or some neural-drive/co-ordination ability if that’s the right phrasing) the next two days. However, I did another two sessions and each time the power in my legs was down for a few days after. Decrease in vertical jump hieght.
From earlier readings I thought the current consensus was that anything that robs you of power and sprint speed for several days was generally to be avoided. The main area I got that idea from was after reading how Olympic lifters do there pwer work 5-6 days a weak. Also, Christian Thebedau (spelling), and a few others practically have said as much.
That, combined with reading not more than a weak later that isomeric training cuases no improvement in sprint speed, on this very website, and I basically lost faith in the exercise.
You can make the assesment that I didn’t give it long enough but I haven’t got the time to try out everything I read, and some of my own ideas, and stuff recomended by others for like 6 months to see if it works or not. Unfortunately, there is that reality to consider aswell.
(I did also tried the lunge drop landings but they really hurt the toes of rear foot when slamming into the ground. How else is your rear foot going to land in drop lunges? So I didn’t find the drop lunges to be practical.)

Also, you told me in an earlier post that you saw some adaptation from iso-lunge exercise (after quite some time), but you never told me it improved your sprint times. As tough as it is, this is (and I believe) the bottom line in sprint training.
When intermediate leval athletes like our selves are doing something for 5 months or more, If our sprint times have not improved in that time, there is a problem and the program is not working. Now this is the hard reality and this is what makes the 100m sprint the hardest sport in the world.
I have tried to many differant things and some things lasting for 5 months and sometimes no improvement in sprint time for a year - untill… Other times I have seen shocking improvements at other times with some methods. I’m 31 and I’ll be 32 before the summer kicks in. I’m afraid I haven’t got to many years left to try things for ages that have never been proved by anyone to significantly improve sprint speed. If something as intense as iso-lunges the way you recomend might give marginal speed improvement at best, after 4-5 months, then I’d rather put that energy into something else that might work better. No offence at all here, but I’m afraid this is the situation with Me.
We will have some diss-agreements know and again, some will be heated, but on the whole I am glad there are passionate and knowladgeable people on this forum.

[mortac8]

@popequique

Is overspeed really needed for an altitude drop, all i see occuring from that is injury.

How is it different than jumping from a higher box?

[star61]

@james_colbert

first this goes back to the problem with studies. i will bet you a 100 bucks that those studies were performed with novice athletes. i could improve the sprint times of novice athletes by having them jump rope.

No, all the studies were not novice athletes. Some involved runners, others trained athletes in other fields, such as soccer or rugby.

@james_colbert

also if those studies were true all of the fastest men in the world would also be the strongest squaters. as we know there are a wide spectrum of limit strength displayed amongst elite athletes.

Your logic is flawed. First, I didn’t say stronger athletes, even relatively stronger, would be faster than those that are less strong. There are many variables involved in making one fast, strength is just one variable.

@james_colbert

you assume that because what i have written before that i mean there is no benefit to maximal strength. there is in its training but not its result. lol confusing i bet.

Is this your opinion based on theory only? Do you have any empirical evidence to back this up?

@james_colbert

you are right in most cases if you increase your squat you will increase the velocity at which you can move a lighter weight, but not always, and being able to move a weight with a RELATIVLY high velocity has nothing to do with, or very little to do, with moving your body at high velocity.

In fact it does. Being able to move greater and greater weights with higher and higher velocity will allow you to generate more power, jump higher, and run faster. Ask any one of the thousands of athletes who have experienced this.

@james_colbert

when dealing with weight you dont address the issues of alpha gamma loops, inhibitive interneurons, reflexes in general, or the spring model of human movement in which balistic movements often operate under a very confined range of movement thereby relying on tissue elasticty for the noted rapididty of movement. basically moving fast with a weight isnt really moving fast and your body controls rapid athletic movements and powerfull weightbearing movements in two different ways.

No, because I’m not a bio-scientist. I’m curious, you’ve been asked before but haven’t responded, what is your education and training in the biosciences?

But speaking of science, models and empirical data, I am in fact a scientist by education and training. My education is geochemistry and geology, my training includes petrology, geochemistry and petrophysics. I have dealt with individuals who refused to accept emprical studies because the didn’t fit the theorectical models. Theory is critical to understanding, but model driven theory that flies in the face of empirical data is pretty much useless.

@james_colbert

lets take another look at your logic. by your reasoning he who squats the most would sprint the fastest or atleast have the potential too. or allow me to rephrase the person with the best relative strength. relative strength is important but as we both know there are plenty of individuals who weighed less than ben could squat more (in a full squat) and could not run worth shit.

My logic isn’t flawed, you miss the point. I have never stated that strength is the only, or even the most important quality, a sprinter could have. It’s obviously not. What I have stated, and you have rejected, is that a specific individual can increase his potential to run fast and jump high if he can improve his functional strength without acquiring any additional bodyweight penalty. I also believe that increasing limit strength allows the individual to increase his/her functional strength if they train properly.

James, please don’t get me wrong. I am very interested in this discussion and how an individual can improve his/her neuromuscular system. I just think you’re assumptions about strength go too far, especially since you refuse to point us towards the studies/observations which have led you to believe what you do.

@james_colbert

o yea i didnt leave you any negative rep points lol i could care less about rep, ive got more negative points than probably anybody on this site.

Rats…at this rate I’ll never reach -1000 by summer!

[star61]

@james_colbert

tests for what though? you dont seem to understand that just because a muscle is strong does not mean that it will perfrom athleticly (in this case allow you to run fast) if this were the case 170 lb powerlifters would be some of the fastest people in the world. the CNS adapts to the stress placed on it and the stress of lifting a maximal weight is completly different from sprinting fast or jumping high. the motor control patterns are completly different, the forces, ect. ect. sure a strong squat is a good thing but it will mean nothing on the track unless you know how to intergrate it into your training. i see this all to often. people think i can squat alot so now i can sprint fast. they forget that almost any training of a novice will produce a general adaptive effect. understand your body how it works to control forces, then you will understand how standing up with 600 lbs on your back isnt going to make you fast. it is a component, a useful tool but that is it.

Again with the assumptions. My post was in direct response to…

@Davan

Squat is not the end all test of leg strength…

The squat is, IMHO, one of the best tests for posterior chain strength. I never said that there is a direct correlation between even relative strength and speed or jumping in any given population (although some studies can pick this up), but I do believe that there is a direct correlation, not necessarily linear, in an individual’s posterior chain functional strength levels and his/her ability to sprint fast/jump high.

[rj24]

@mortac8

How is it different than jumping from a higher box?

As far as absolute force at touch down, there is no difference. The difference comes from the increased rate of acceleration provided by the bands. A sample (not an accurate one, I don’t want to wade through physics on my day off) would look like this:

48" ADA Drop
Force at Contact: 5 x BW
Drop Time: .85 seconds

36" Overspeed ADA Drop
Force at Contact: 5 x BW
Drop Time: .6 seconds

So, as you can see, the only difference is your nervous system percieves the fall and landing differently due to the decreased fall time. It tricks it into working faster and therein lies the potentiating effects.

Now, I don’t recommend anyone just go and try this. There is criteria that should be met before progressing to methods like this.

[Davan]

It is a good test if you do it regularly and have good leverages for it. You can have a strong posterior chain, but if you have long legs, you may not perform it as well as someone with relatively shorter legs. If you rarely or never squat, you won’t be proficient at the movement and it isn’t really a good test at all then (remember charlie mentioning all of those plyo assessments that don’t mean anything if you don’t do them??). If you squat ultra-wide to parallel vs narrow stance w/ ATG depth, your assessment must take that into account. Let’s also remember if you lean over a lot or not a lot that will also recruit different muscles.

[Charlie_Francis]

@rj24

As far as absolute force at touch down, there is no difference. The difference comes from the increased rate of acceleration provided by the bands. A sample (not an accurate one, I don’t want to wade through physics on my day off) would look like this:

48" ADA Drop
Force at Contact: 5 x BW
Drop Time: .85 seconds

36" Overspeed ADA Drop
Force at Contact: 5 x BW
Drop Time: .6 seconds

So, as you can see, the only difference is your nervous system percieves the fall and landing differently due to the decreased fall time. It tricks it into working faster and therein lies the potentiating effects.

Now, I don’t recommend anyone just go and try this. There is criteria that should be met before progressing to methods like this.

I’ve still got the same question as Mortac. Air time matters only insofar as it supports optimal ground reaction. Usually, athletes find that shorter ground time is facilitated by greater air time

[star61]

@Davan

It is a good test if you do it regularly and have good leverages for it. You can have a strong posterior chain, but if you have long legs, you may not perform it as well as someone with relatively shorter legs. If you rarely or never squat, you won’t be proficient at the movement and it isn’t really a good test at all then (remember charlie mentioning all of those plyo assessments that don’t mean anything if you don’t do them??). If you squat ultra-wide to parallel vs narrow stance w/ ATG depth, your assessment must take that into account. Let’s also remember if you lean over a lot or not a lot that will also recruit different muscles.

Yes, I agree with what you say. I should clarify in that most of what I say is for the individual. As far as the squat being a good test, I mean for the individual to assess his/her improvements in posterior chain strength. I didn’t mean it as a comparator between individuals, although I would still say there aren’t any other better tests that come to mind in either case.

[rj24]

@Charlie_Francis

I’ve still got the same question as Mortac. Air time matters only insofar as it supports optimal ground reaction. Usually, athletes find that shorter ground time is facilitated by greater air time

I’m sorry Charlie, but I don’t have a great grasp on the science behind it. What I can tell you though, is that it is (in my experience) a much better potentiator than depth jumps and it helps to deal with the fear that one might feel while dropping from a higher box. Again, no science to back me up, but I can attest to it’s effectiveness in my own training.

[Senri]

if you lean over alot what muscles does it usually hit? the lower back or the glutes?

[james_colbert]

@rj24

James, I think this may just be a semantics issue here. I term power absorbtion as what occurs when one lands from an altitude landing, or during the support phase of sprint stride. Force absorbtion is eccentric strength displayed at lower speeds, such as a heavy negative squat. The two are different qualities, but are interdependant.

force absorption is both, your right for the most part it is semantics and a bit gets lots in the translation as we use different nomeclature but its important to understand what i was alluding to in the previous post otherwise it will cause problems with synthesis of other methods that use it as its foundation. but for the most part i agree.

[james_colbert]

@Goose232

James, when I did the iso lunges, I did them in the following manner;

The thigh was parallell. The heel of forward foot was “digging” into floor so as to recruit more hamstring contraction. The trail leg was as straight as I could get it. I also contracted hip flexor at front of trail leg as hard as possible.
This ofcourse forced my front leg and gluteal to contract very hard. So my front leg glutes and hams, and my trail leg hip-flexor were working very hard like opposing forces.
Whilst I was doing the exercise I could clearly understand the relationship between hip flexors oon right hip leg and hip extensors on left hip & leg. After this set, I took 2 minute rest and switched legs to right leg being in front. I believe this is the way you recommended to do them. I must admit the contraction was incredible. I had allready done something simmilar a few months earlier, but in a step up position with front foot on step rather than the lunge position. So I allready understood part of the relationship between one leg and the other leg, also hip-flexors on one side of hip and hip extensors on other side.
Your lunge version offered a more intense contraction than my step up version where-by step up position iso" is a bit risky to the knees any way.
I thought the iso-lunge was an awesome exercise. However, my legs had lost power or some neural-drive/co-ordination ability if that’s the right phrasing) the next two days. However, I did another two sessions and each time the power in my legs was down for a few days after. Decrease in vertical jump hieght.
From earlier readings I thought the current consensus was that anything that robs you of power and sprint speed for several days was generally to be avoided. The main area I got that idea from was after reading how Olympic lifters do there pwer work 5-6 days a weak. Also, Christian Thebedau (spelling), and a few others practically have said as much.
That, combined with reading not more than a weak later that isomeric training cuases no improvement in sprint speed, on this very website, and I basically lost faith in the exercise.
You can make the assesment that I didn’t give it long enough but I haven’t got the time to try out everything I read, and some of my own ideas, and stuff recomended by others for like 6 months to see if it works or not. Unfortunately, there is that reality to consider aswell.
(I did also tried the lunge drop landings but they really hurt the toes of rear foot when slamming into the ground. How else is your rear foot going to land in drop lunges? So I didn’t find the drop lunges to be practical.)

Also, you told me in an earlier post that you saw some adaptation from iso-lunge exercise (after quite some time), but you never told me it improved your sprint times. As tough as it is, this is (and I believe) the bottom line in sprint training.
When intermediate leval athletes like our selves are doing something for 5 months or more, If our sprint times have not improved in that time, there is a problem and the program is not working. Now this is the hard reality and this is what makes the 100m sprint the hardest sport in the world.
I have tried to many differant things and some things lasting for 5 months and sometimes no improvement in sprint time for a year - untill… Other times I have seen shocking improvements at other times with some methods. I’m 31 and I’ll be 32 before the summer kicks in. I’m afraid I haven’t got to many years left to try things for ages that have never been proved by anyone to significantly improve sprint speed. If something as intense as iso-lunges the way you recomend might give marginal speed improvement at best, after 4-5 months, then I’d rather put that energy into something else that might work better. No offence at all here, but I’m afraid this is the situation with Me.
We will have some diss-agreements know and again, some will be heated, but on the whole I am glad there are passionate and knowladgeable people on this forum.

i completly understand your postion. some guy on the internet is telling you something is great and you should do it. well thats not what im doing. i know most people wont do these excercise simply because they do hurt they do take a leap of faith, and they do require you to show up 100% everytime, every rep, every hold or else it all falls apart. that is the one drawback of training this way. everyone can do it but very few will. Goose you can tell them how incredibly painful and intese the method can be.

ok first you performed the excercise wrong. “pulling into the gound with the hamstring on the ball of the front foot, extending the rear leg with the hip flexor” that does not mean the rear leg should be perfectly straight. it should be bent. here is another reason why this program is very difficult, you can only convey the knoweldge to someone who already has it. i know that sounds like total bull shit but when you get in the right postion you will KNOW you were in the right postion. i dont want to get too much into the performance of the excercise (it a waste of time). basically you didnt do it right, another thing … no 2 min break 3 deep breaths and down into the postion.
one last thing this type of training does not go well with others. its made to work perfectly with everything else you do so you cant simply stick it in and have it work.

i really dont want to talk about this stuff as ive yet to meet one person do what is perscriibed. i would like to talk theory with you guys as i have learned alot from our discussions and have alot i wish to share.

[pakewi]

@popequique

Is overspeed really needed for an altitude drop, all i see occuring from that is injury.

An altitude drop is PER SE an overspeed exercise.

[rj24]

James, I agree with you on most of what you say, but the lengthy isometric holds are just one thing I can’t understand. I understand that there’s a flexibility issue with them, and that they will allow one to attain the proper position necessary in sprinting, but beyond that I can find no other useful qualities.

To me, they seem like a method that produces very little power over a long period of time and could not possibly have a carryover, outside of flexibility, to any athletic activity. I agree that it is in the stretch that optimal strength and power gains are made, but not with an unweighted method like this.

Again, not to take anything away from you or your system, but this is one component I just don’t agree with. Everything else is fine, as it all pretty much matches my own thoughts, but not this.

[mortac8]

@pakewi

An altitude drop is PER SE an overspeed exercise.

So an altitude drop with bands pulling you downward is like using a towing device while performing downhill runs.

[james_colbert]

@rj24

James, I agree with you on most of what you say, but the lengthy isometric holds are just one thing I can’t understand. I understand that there’s a flexibility issue with them, and that they will allow one to attain the proper position necessary in sprinting, but beyond that I can find no other useful qualities.

To me, they seem like a method that produces very little power over a long period of time and could not possibly have a carryover, outside of flexibility, to any athletic activity. I agree that it is in the stretch that optimal strength and power gains are made, but not with an unweighted method like this.

Again, not to take anything away from you or your system, but this is one component I just don’t agree with. Everything else is fine, as it all pretty much matches my own thoughts, but not this.

ive said this many many times in many many many threads… iso lunges are not isometrics they are extremly extremly extremly extremly slow eccentrics. that is the key. the result is extremly rapid muscular contractions. you dont understand what the excercise so its no wonder you cant understand its benefit. thats the big thing im trying to get at and its not me trying to preach or say that im better than the rest of you, im NOT. “our acts can be no wiser than our thoughts, our thoughts can be no wiser than our understanding” youve got to start at the begining, a foundation because everything i talk about is a synthesis of everyday given knowledge. pick up a book on anatomoy and physiology read it through and you will start to see what im talking about. im not smarter than you guys ive just been exposed to something you havent. i want to make it absolutely clear than im not trying to show my superiorrity in any way because there is none. i only want you to know why so much knowledge is getting lost in translation.

[james_colbert]

@mortac8

So an altitude drop with bands pulling you downward is like using a towing device while performing downhill runs.

the idea is to increase the velocity upon impact therby increasing the force during contact. but this is a little stupid as one most people arent ready for the force they would absorb from a normal drop and two the bands need to be released b4 impact or else the neurological patterns of the excercise change elastic forces cause a different adaptation than gravitational forces. you can simply increase the height from which you drop. that also makes calculating the forces a bit easier. i can see some benefit for this in some advanced excercises but again you need to have the elastic tension released b4 the end of the movement.

[Senri]

okay my thread is being hijacked here, so let me ask my simplke question again

If you lean over alot during squats what muscles does it usually hit? the lower back or the glutes? or mostly the posterior chain and less on anterior like the quadriceps?

[west58]

I have 2 sons, ages 13 and 16 who were started on ISO lunges this last summer. They used dumbells, as much weight as they could withstand and perform a good iso lunge with front heels off the ground. Reps took anywhere from 15 to 30 seconds. Followed by altitude lunge drops. Other excercises were also a part of the block workout. We did progress in our height of drop but never to an AMT jump. However, we did see a spike jump in deadlift strength, and speed. Last year the 16 year ran the 200M in 23.6 (fat) this year, (and the season is not over) he has run 22.2 and a 21.6 200 split in 800M relay (anchor) I expect he will finish the season under 22(fat) because he hasn’t put everything together. The 13 yr old, last season ran 28 and change in the 200M and so far has run 25.27. I expect he will go under 25 later this summer. I asked James several questions last summer and it prompted me to seek out a coach who uses similiar autoreg. training techniques. Thanks James!!

[star61]

@Senri

okay my thread is being hijacked here, so let me ask my simplke question again

If you lean over alot during squats what muscles does it usually hit? the lower back or the glutes? or mostly the posterior chain and less on anterior like the quadriceps?

The more you lean, the more stress on the low back because of the increased lever. One of the reasons for the wide, even very wide, squat stance some lifters use is to reduce the need to lean forward. Not everyone is built the same, obviously. Some people can squat medium stance and stay nearly upright. Others, usually taller people, have to lean forward to keep the center of gravity from moving to far to the rear and falling on their can. The wider the stance, the closer your feet are to the center of gravity, and less lean is required.